Top 10 poll: #12 player ever

[calsnowskier]

I can’t say conclusively, no, but he was never even suggested as a PED guy in any rumors, or anything. He never came up with Cousin Yuri or Balco or The Canseco Files. None of it(at least that I ever heard). I think he was clean. Hell, he probably would have been more durable with the PED’s.

Without an official test fail, I don’t knock anyone, the media has shown beyond all shadow of a doubt that they protect their buddies and bury the guys they dislike. So I don’t trust them in any way. They loved Ortiz, and he was all over all the rumors just as much as B&C, but they elected him into the HOF on his first ballot with hardly a dissenting opinion. Same with Piazza and IRod.

 

[calsnowskier]

sure... but Don Zimmer would have probably died... so its a good thing that Pedro didnt do steroids...

Donny Boy got in the ring by his own decision. Pedro was kind to just “Olay” him off to the side rather than Nolan Ryan his Ventura-ass.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Donny Boy got in the ring by his own decision. Pedro was kind to just “Olay” him off to the side rather than Nolan Ryan his Ventura-ass.

yes... but if pedro was roided up... now picture what would have happened...

 

[chappee11]

sure... but Don Zimmer would have probably died... so its a good thing that Pedro didnt do steroids...

Fuckin’ Zimmer. What the hell was he doing there?

And who is Karim Garcia, anyway?

 

[chappee11]

Without an official test fail, I don’t knock anyone, the media has shown beyond all shadow of a doubt that they protect their buddies and bury the guys they dislike. So I don’t trust them in any way. They loved Ortiz, and he was all over all the rumors just as much as B&C, but they elected him into the HOF on his first ballot with hardly a dissenting opinion. Same with Piazza and IRod.

Ortiz was not nearly as implicated as Bonds and Clemens were. Bonds had all the Balco links, Clemens had McNamee explicitly talking about injecting Clemens. He was even called before Congress to testify. Clemens is the biggest fraud of them all as he clearly had an entire 2nd career after he started cheating. Ortiz had nothing close to this(not saying he was clean). Piazza, Irod(probably Bagwell & Edgar Martinez, as well) almost certainly PED cheats, too.

 

[calsnowskier]

Ortiz was not nearly as implicated as Bonds and Clemens were. Bonds had all the Balco links, Clemens had McNamee explicitly talking about injecting Clemens. He was even called before Congress to testify. Clemens is the biggest fraud of them all as he clearly had an entire 2nd career after he started cheating. Ortiz had nothing close to this(not saying he was clean). Piazza, Irod(probably Bagwell & Edgar Martinez, as well) almost certainly PED cheats, too.

We both agree IN CONCEPT. The degree of each and how we treat them, we can disagree on and still each be reasonable.

But calling ANYONE “clean” from that era (Pedro, Griffey, Thome) is just buying into a narrative told by people who have demonstrated a propensity to lie time and time again.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Will Honus make the top 100?

Not saying he deserves to be listed now, but it's time to bring up Lefty Grove for pitchers. 300 wins, 3..02 ERA, 1.278 WHIP. Held in the minors until age 25, pitched in Fenway for half his career.

 

[calsnowskier]

Will Honus make the top 100?

Not saying he deserves to be listed now, but it's time to bring up Lefty Grove for pitchers. 300 wins, 3..02 ERA, 1.278 WHIP. Held in the minors until age 25, pitched in Fenway for half his career.

Is there a legit argument that he belong above the other pitchers currently being looked at? Hard to defend adding more pitchers when the ones on the board aren’t gaining a lot of traction.

 

[calsnowskier]

Updated for #11:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1948-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)

1876-1904 - 0
1905-1906 - 1
1907-1913 - 2
1914 - 3
1915-1922 - 4
1923-1927 - 5
1928 - 4
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 2
1938 - 1
1939 - 2
1940 - 1
1941-1947 - 2
1948-1950 - 3
1951-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1973 - 2
1974-1976 - 1
1977-1985 - 0
1986-2007 - 1
2007-2024 - 0

FYI…

I have just been liking these to this point, but this is a REALLY interesting breakdown that I really appreciate.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Without an official test fail, I don’t knock anyone, the media has shown beyond all shadow of a doubt that they protect their buddies and bury the guys they dislike. So I don’t trust them in any way. They loved Ortiz, and he was all over all the rumors just as much as B&C, but they elected him into the HOF on his first ballot with hardly a dissenting opinion. Same with Piazza and IRod.

Some said that there was already a player in the HOF who was a heavy steroid user before Ortiz. Has to be Kirby Puckett. All the signs are there. The miraculous power surge. The body transformation, the injury bug, the nasty disposition later in life.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Some said that there was already a player in the HOF who was a heavy steroid user before Ortiz. Has to be Kirby Puckett. All the signs are there. The miraculous power surge. The body transformation, the injury bug, the nasty disposition later in life.

Mickey Mantle is a known steroid user and made it... but his steroid usage also failed...

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Is there a legit argument that he belong above the other pitchers currently being looked at? Hard to defend adding more pitchers when the ones on the board aren’t gaining a lot of traction.

His career peak is every bit as good as Pedro's or Sandy's. In the 1930's when offensive numbers were off the charts. Grove probably lost four years to him being bound to the IL Baltimore Orioles. He was the dominant pitcher in the IL when the difference between the high minors and the majors were much less than today. He probably could have been starting by age 21.

 

[chappee11]

FYI…

I have just been liking these to this point, but this is a REALLY interesting breakdown that I really appreciate.

Same. This is crazy to see. Bonds is the only player who started in MLB in the last SEVENTY years to be on the list, so far. The myth/legend of the MLB we never saw is soundly beating the MLB that we DID see.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Same. This is crazy to see. Bonds is the only player who started in MLB in the last SEVENTY years to be on the list, so far. The myth/legend of the MLB we never saw is soundly beating the MLB that we DID see.

and yet... we still knock those times in baseball... pick a lane...

 

[calsnowskier]

Same. This is crazy to see. Bonds is the only player who started in MLB in the last SEVENTY years to be on the list, so far. The myth/legend of the MLB we never saw is soundly beating the MLB that we DID see.

We are about to have a run in the more recent era.

But we can’t come to any kind of consensus about which single modern player should get the next slot. All the recent greats were specialized greats while the old-timers were renaissance men.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Same. This is crazy to see. Bonds is the only player who started in MLB in the last SEVENTY years to be on the list, so far. The myth/legend of the MLB we never saw is soundly beating the MLB that we DID see.

My lifetime has seen the best catcher ever (Bench), the best 3b ever (Schmidt), the #1 or #2 1b of all time (Pujols), the best basestealer/leadoff of all time (Rickey). I would stack a five man rotation of pitchers I've seen against any other comparable era (RJ, Maddux, Seaver, Pedro, Ryan). It just seems to me that many, many players in my lifetime have fallen just short of the past. Be it injury (Junior), lifestyle (Gooden) or something else. And Iadmit, I'm no fan of the Steroid Crew. And WAR, with all its warts, does show that the past players might have been better. I voted for Honus, Rickey and Schmidt

 

[msgkings322]

We both agree IN CONCEPT. The degree of each and how we treat them, we can disagree on and still each be reasonable.

But calling ANYONE “clean” from that era (Pedro, Griffey, Thome) is just buying into a narrative told by people who have demonstrated a propensity to lie time and time again.

I think we can include a couple players from that era who were going against player solidarity and calling for testing, like Frank Thomas. He was big his whole life and pretty pissed seeing how many others juiced. He was vocal at the time about it, unusual for a player.

 

[msgkings322]

We are about to have a run in the more recent era.

But we can’t come to any kind of consensus about which single modern player should get the next slot. All the recent greats were specialized greats while the old-timers were renaissance men.

ARod did it all too, like the old timers. And Ohtani is the modern Babe isn't he?

 

[TheGoodMan19]

ARod did it all too, like the old timers. And Ohtani is the modern Babe isn't he?

Expect Ruth had a career longer than seven years

 

[msgkings322]

A guy regularly dancing between 1st and 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) really puts him well above his numbers to get ranked this high?

cal, I almost always appreciate your perspective but this one, in my mind, discredits your complaint about Mantle being ranked as high as he is. His numbers seem closer to his ranking than Henderson to this level. Does Henderson's WAR7 really discredit the stolen bases and the intangible base dancing enough to completely overlook all the guys above him on that list I gave?

To me this is part of the fun of this game, the emotional inconsistencies. It would be boring if we just voted in everyone by WAR or WAR7 or OPS+ or whatever other combination of stats, and were strictly consistent on all of our opinions. Not to mention we have good arguments about what different stats mean for different eras, positions, etc.

So we have all the numbers but then we are fans so subjective things like chappee saying Pedro is the best he ever saw, or cal giving Rickey unicorn points, or me doing the same with Ohtani. It's more than numbers and everyone values things differently so we argue about it and that's the fun part.