tOfficial Apologize To Incognito Thread

[MrMoJoRisin63]

If you are scared of that message you should be flipping burgers. You can't handle much more.

Okay Doctor Ruth pleae post your degree seeing as you are such an expert.

I am not scared at all of the message you seem to lack some facet of the conversation, has nothing to do with me.

Martin felt threatened enough to leave that's what matters. The message posted was very inappropriate and did directly threaten him, not sure how you can't grasp that. I guess you just don't want to or choose to show us your internet tough guy prowess.

 

[craigk217]

There's so much more to this story than meets the eye, IMO. And I've had my share of speculations from the very beginning about all of this.

My take on this, so far, from what I've gathered:

- The Dolphin organization seems to have purveyed and 'allowed' an environment of hazing (as most NFL teams do) and a sub-culture of crossing racial boundaries within their team environment ... both black & white by evidently allowing racial slurs to be 'acceptable' amongst many players (if not all) regardless of race, creed or color. That is on the whole organization from top down that they 'allowed' this as 'common practice' .... this includes players mind you. If that's what they chose to 'accept' then that's the way it became ... nobody's fault but their own, IMO ... but I'm sure it happens in many other lockers rooms besides the Dolphins.

- Jonathan Martin was not raised like the 'prototypical' black kid ... quite the opposite. He came from a very privileged family with a white father and a black mother ... both Harvard grad lawyers. He attended private schools all the way thru college and then he, himself, attended a very prestigious university at Stanford. I'm sure I dont have to explain to all what going to Stanford means.

- Martin was basicially 'ostracized' from many of the black players on the team for being what some called 'nerdy' ... 'aloof' ... 'standoffish' ... 'weird' ... 'too white to be a true brother' - just to name a few words and phrases I have learned from his fellow-teammates. He just didnt seem to 'fit in' with the other black players on the team, because of many of these factors of not being 'street savvy' ... not living in their 'same urban culture' and not 'having the same lifestyle' many of the other black players had to deal with growing up ... hence, he became somewhat of an 'outcast'. Not Martin's fault, IMO ... but the other black players for putting this on Martin.

- This next point is pure speculation on my part: I believe when Martin joined the Dolphins/NFL, the locker room scene was a 'culture shock' to him as I believe he probably had never quite seen anything like it before with the rampant horseplay, pranks, language, talk, and overall attitude inside. I don't think I need to say to anybody here that most NFL lockerooms are an 'animal house' or 'jungle' and I dont think he was probably used to hearing the 'N' word used to widespread like it was allowed in the Dolphins' locker room from white to black and vice-versa (or any other race/racial terms amongst other players of color). Something just tells me that this whole environment was 'new' to him and he probably had some difficulty in coping with it from Day One.

- Martin truly did want to fit in, but I dont think he knew how to. I think he just went along with what was taking place, not wanting to rock the boat and do the best he could in coping with this 'new enivornment' that he wasnt accustomed to. He did the 'rookie' thing with the typical hazing that rookies receive on nearly every team (if not all) in the NFL and went with the flow. When you know you don't fit in with a certain group, you tend to be 'shy and standoffish' as was what perceived as basically being 'aloof' and 'weird' and he was treated as such. I think this had alot to do with his play and he struggled on the field to become what the team/coaches expected of him as a 2nd round draft pick.

- The coaching staff took notice of this and evidently wanted some of the leadership on the team (namely Incognito) to 'toughen him up to make him fit' and play as expected. Enter Richie Incognito here ...

- Here's where it gets gray on how RI actually treated Martin on and off the field, in his attempt to 'toughen him up' as directed by the staff. From what I gather from the news that I've extensively read and seen is that RI was showing him the 'tough love' approach, but was also his friend and always had Martin's back ... no matter what. RI routinely used the 'N' word (along with other words) with any & all teammates (not just Martin) as it was an 'accepted practice' amongst the Dolphins' team for him to do so, since he was 'christened an honorary black dude' due to his upbringing/street-mentality/urbaness ... RI fit in well amongst his black teammates and many have said that they consider RI more black than Martin.

- Reports indicate that Martin never went to any coaching staff or upper management with any of 'his issues' before walking out on the team. The only report I had seen was Martin's agent notifying GM Jeff Ireland that Martin was not happy with the way RI was treating his client, and shortly thereafter walked out on the team. NOTE: Jeff Ireland told Martin's agent basically to tell his client to 'man up, confront Incognito about it and maybe even punch him in the face'. Martin decided to just walk out on the Dolphins and expose certain texts and voicemails to the media (namely Adam Schefter -- a pretty well respected media guy) and the media ran with the initial story, irresponsibly premature IMO before gathering more facts & data. Then this whole thing got blown up on every sports station/media outlet, nationwide.

- Now we have this mess and the NFL needs to get to the bottom of what is really happening here, hence an investigation by an outside law firm to gather facts and report back to the Commish ... no deadline/timeline given.

 

[element1286]

^Great Summary, craig.

 

[JDM]

Okay Doctor Ruth pleae post your degree seeing as you are such an expert.

I am not scared at all of the message you seem to lack some facet of the conversation, has nothing to do with me.

Martin felt threatened enough to leave that's what matters. The message posted was very inappropriate and did directly threaten him, not sure how you can't grasp that. I guess you just don't want to or choose to show us your internet tough guy prowess.

Which is why he should be flipping burgers. He can't handle extremely minor stress, so he clearly isn't going to be able to handle actual stress.

 

[JDM]

I think that's a reasonable suspicion, but I guess that would be my point. Just like hazing isn't a big deal until that one incident that's taken too far. Although I think Miami with a young team, and young players at key spots, was the type of place that Richie Incognito could run wild, and young guys wouldn't necessarily stand up to him even if they did think it was wrong.

Hazing is a good thing if you don't go too far. It weeds out the people who don't deserve to be there.

 

[element1286]

Hazing is a good thing if you don't go too far. It weeds out the people who don't deserve to be there.

Yeah, I'm never going to agree with that.

 

[mcro_rave_2001]

this was just another example of the public jumping to conclusions, because of the media.

 

[JDM]

Yeah, I'm never going to agree with that.

Can you name any type of culture/social groups that don't have some type of rite of passage involved?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Hazing is a good thing if you don't go too far. It weeds out the people who don't deserve to be there.

Pranks is a good thing- hazing is saying you if you dont pass you dont belong... Hazing is not a good thing especially when the failed person does not leave... Unlike fraternities or secret societies where the hazing is a test to get in, a sports team it is not up to the players who gets in, and isolating them will only hurt the chemistry of the team...

But Pranking a teamate can become optionary, and you can make an issue about it if you dont want to be pranked...

 

[JDM]

Pranks is a good thing- hazing is saying you if you dont pass you dont belong... Hazing is not a good thing especially when the failed person does not leave... Unlike fraternities or secret societies where the hazing is a test to get in, a sports team it is not up to the players who gets in, and isolating them will only hurt the chemistry of the team...

But Pranking a teamate can become optionary, and you can make an issue about it if you dont want to be pranked...

It really is, though. If the players don't like someone, he won't stay.

 

[Smart]

"but 99% of people are multi-dimensional and cannot be encompassed by such a simplistic narrative".

does that even mean ? Everyone is "multi-dimensional". But if one of those dimensions is that they get off on bullying others they need to stop and we shouldn't encourage it as a society because it's not helpful. You made a claim in another post yesterday stating that you'd been bullied in every job you've ever had and it was no big deal or something to that effect. I replied that this hasn't been my experience in 40+ years of employment in variety of jobs and wondered what sort of jobs you've held where this was the case. You never replied and I'm still wondering. In what industry or occupation is bullying in the workplace amongst co-workers a plus for the organization and how so ? I'm not discounting the possibility that there are isolated instances, but I would guess that they're very specialized cases and few and far between.

You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never mentioned workplace experience. I've definitely seen bullying in plenty of social situations and in schools.

The point about multi-dimensioned people is that nearly everyone has been bullied and nearly everyone has bullied someone. It's easy to condemn someone for bullying someone for being slutty, and the media loves the narrative, but most of the time that person is bullying a fellow student for not getting action. The idea that anyone who bullies is automatically evil and anyone who gets bullied is automatically a saint is illogical and not grounded in reality.

This is the perfect case in point. People want to portray Martin as a victim, but he exploited stereotypes about a person (Incognito) to create a false inference of his behavior. The media may embrace him as the poor innocent saint, but that's much worse to me than anything Incognito did here.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It really is, though. If the players don't like someone, he won't stay.

or he will stay and ruin the team chemistry...

 

[element1286]

Can you name any type of culture/social groups that don't have some type of rite of passage involved?

Don't know, just know I don't haze my friends, wasn't hazed playing high school sports, and never at work.

 

[Smart]

Smart needs to steer clear of mental health evaluation. Stick to those pre-law classes. You speak and simplistic and gross generalizations about a very complex subject.

I listed eleven facts. I'm not sure what simplistic and gross generalizations I gave or where I tried to evaluate anybody's mental health. I get that you disagree with me and like to put little insults in, but you could at least try a little harder.

Also, it's law, not pre-law. I'm a proud Badger grad.

 

[JDM]

You can't haze friends one on one. It doesn't work.

There's a reason every culture since the beginning of time has included initiation rites to be involved. Nowadays there isn't a single wide-scale thing, but most organizations haze at some level. Even if you don't call it hazing, did you have a say right off the bat on your sports teams/job? Or did you pay your dues first?

 

[element1286]

You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never mentioned workplace experience. I've definitely seen bullying in plenty of social situations and in schools.

The point about multi-dimensioned people is that nearly everyone has been bullied and nearly everyone has bullied someone. It's easy to condemn someone for bullying someone for being slutty, and the media loves the narrative, but most of the time that person is bullying a fellow student for not getting action. The idea that anyone who bullies is automatically evil and anyone who gets bullied is automatically a saint is illogical and not grounded in reality.

This is the perfect case in point. People want to portray Martin as a victim, but he exploited stereotypes about a person (Incognito) to create a false inference of his behavior. The media may embrace him as the poor innocent saint, but that's much worse to me than anything Incognito did here.

You're training to be a lawyer, smart. You know you are just begging the question here. Why would Martin do that, and what proof do you have to support that?

 

[JDM]

or he will stay and ruin the team chemistry...

He won't stay. If he does the coach is an idiot.

Hazing improves chemistry. Everyone has earned his spot.

 

[Smart]

I love how many vehemently oppose bullying, but then resort to it, when others argue a different point of view.

I wish we could bring rep back just for this one comment. It is one of the truest posts in board history.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You can't haze friends one on one. It doesn't work.

There's a reason every culture since the beginning of time has included initiation rites to be involved. Nowadays there isn't a single wide-scale thing, but most organizations haze at some level. Even if you don't call it hazing, did you have a say right off the bat on your sports teams/job? Or did you pay your dues first?

I am not against hazing, all i am saying is that it does not work if the people who fail stay... On a sports team someone who fails the hazing ritual, will either demand a trade or stay on the team until he is a free agent... they are not going to leave!!! And if that player gets isolated and group attacked whether it is significant or not, it can only hurt the team chemistry...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

call it pranks instead of hazing and continue to do it... But if you are doing individual pranks and the person who gets the bad end asks you to stop then you must stop... they can not handle it and that is ok...