Thoughts on trading up

[tpaulus_2]

Detroit Lions second look: LaAdrian Waddle dominant in win over Dallas | MLive.com

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Also, what are these statements based on?

"...so Detroit's rushing attack should have been way better than they were."

"So someone on the right side of the line wasn't as effective as we have talked about."

"So someone on the OL wasn't very good at blocking against the run."

You keep making these comments as if we had a horrible running game last year, which really wasn't the case at all... We were still a pass-first offense under Linehan, but we finally ran the ball effectively last season. What gives?

I agree we were a pass first offense -- that is what should make running the ball that much easier for the Lions, as teams are playing them to pass the ball.

I know you have said last year was the 1st time we have effectively run the ball, but they actually finished the year with a better YPC in 2011 and 2012 than they did in 2013. There was only 9 times in the NFL with a worse YPC average than the Lions. Detroit finished with a 4.0 YPC average.

Finishing 23rd in YPC isn't effectively running the ball in my opinion.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

If teams know were interested, they know for certain they'd get our #10 along with another pick(s) somewhere. Other teams may show interest, but if they're lower than us, it benefits them to trade with us bc they can grab someone higher.

That's off the top of my head. I may have more if think harder and longer.

I dont understand your point. It's one thing to say that you as a team are interested in looking at the possibility of trading up, its something altogether different to tell everyone who you would be interested in trading up for.

And I still dont see where what you have suggested could be advantage to the Lions here and not be a disadvantage. The wording of your post essentially says why..... they'd get our #10 along with another pick(s).

They can start planning on just how much they could get out of us since we've told the world that we are very interested in getting this specific guy. That's got to be one of the worst negotiating tactics I could imagine. It's like playing Hold Em with one of your hole cards face up on the table.

Other teams may show interest, but if they're lower than us, it benefits them to trade with us bc they can grab someone higher.

I'm not trying to be a smartass here but I really dont understand what you are saying. Other teams may show interest in what? Making a trade with the Lions where we move down?

How does publically saying we want to move up for Watkins help teams picking below us want to do a deal where we move down? Wouldnt that be counterproductive? Why would a team call us with a trade down possibility when we are letting it be known that we want to move up? We are going in two opposite directions here.

Help me understand what you are saying. If everyone else understands then I'm the idiot (that shouldnt surprise anyone) but I'm not following here.

 

[gandydancer]

Maybe I am mssing something on Waddle. Where does it say he was lauded for his run-blocking? Everything I read is it was his pass blocking which was solid, and since he came from a pass heavy offense at Texas Tech -- that isn't surprising.

Something has to be missing. Warford was named one of the best Guards in the NFL regardless of the fact he is a rookie. If Waddle blocks like you are talking about -- either our RBs are not good or there is a hole somewhere.

Detroit should be able to line up and run the ball at will to the right side of their line if Waddle is a plus blocker like you are saying and he is teamed with Warford. Teams lined up their safeties 20+ yards off the line of scrimmage every game still, so Detroit's rushing attack should have been way better than they were.

Basically what I'm saying is -- Detroit is basically facing a hat on hat on the OL the vast majority of the time. You don't see teams stacking the box to stop the run, nor do you see teams blitzing like crazy against the Lions because of Calvin Johnson. So someone on the OL wasn't very good at blocking against the run. It wasn't Warford. It has been stated Raiola was the #2 rated Center in the league by PFF. Reiff is on the left side of the line protecting the QB's blind side. So someone on the right side of the line wasn't as effective as we have talked about.

I am little confused Mike? You have stated before in the RB tandem thread or OL thread how other than fumbles I believe the tandem is pretty damn good. I remember, because you did one of those "FACT" things... So my question is, did Waddle play part in the awesomeness of this tamdem or just the other 4 guys?
I have stated before I love Robinson and put him on top of my big board. Actaully for reasons of there running attack being better and moving Reiff or Waddle in to gaurd for Sims next year. Remember Waddle also did not play all 16 there.

I just wonder why you are slamming him now for arguements sake or other reasons??

 

[lionstop1]

Micro is saying that other teams besides the Lions may be interested in trading up, and if so and they pick somewhere after the Lions, the Lions might have the advantage because they pick before those teams.

ESPN just did a segment about this and Bill Polian and the guys said all the trade talk is either happening right now and some trades may be done already. He said most of all the trades we see have already been negotiated. He also said a team may even call all 31 teams to see if any type of trades can be made even if trading isnt really in the plan.

The Lions making it known isnt having any type of affect on what other teams might do. One team might try to get the whole draft from the Lions but that's when they say no.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I am little confused Mike? You have stated before in the RB tandem thread or OL thread how other than fumbles I believe the tandem is pretty damn good. I remember, because you did one of those "FACT" things... So my question is, did Waddle play part in the awesomeness of this tamdem or just the other 4 guys?
I have stated before I love Robinson and put him on top of my big board. Actaully for reasons of there running attack being better and moving Reiff or Waddle in to gaurd for Sims next year. Remember Waddle also did not play all 16 there.

I just wonder why you are slamming him now for arguements sake or other reasons??

What is confusing? I've said from the get go, the Lions offensive line was much better last year than anyone thought they would be after replacing 3 starters, but they weren't one of the top OL in the NFL. TP is the one who was arguing that.

I also stated the production from our RBs was outstanding as a tandem. This has to do with their pass catching ability being added in -- having multiple RBs with over 500+ yards receiving is huge. 390 carries for 1650 yards is a 4.2 YPC from our top two backs. If you just take their YPC -- Detroit is still ranked tied for 16th in the NFL in YPC.

And I am not 'bashing' Waddle. I think he was superb find for the Lions as an undrafted FA. I think he could be a serviceable RT for many years if the Lions choose to go that route. I was just stating that -- adding Robinson, who is the top run blocker and either putting him at RT or shifting Reiff to RT, would give the Lions a chance to have one of the best OL in football.

Reiff's strength coming out of college was his run blocking. When he wasn't starting as a rookie, Detroit even put in packages to get him on the field to run block. Saying Reiff wouldn't be an upgrade over Waddle, whose strength is pass protection seems crazy to me.

In the end -- all I'm really saying is -- If you add Robinson and give Detroit a run game that teams have to respect (i.e. move their safeties closer to the line of scrimmage) it will open up the vertical passing game for Detroit. If teams can just put 6 or 7 in the box and handle Detroit's running attack, as they've been doing -- Teams will continue to force Detroit to beat them underneath.

If Detroit wants to stop all the hits Calvin is taking -- run the ball consistently and you won't have to pass 35-40+ times a game to put points on the board. Adding a road grader, who is considered to be the best OL in the draft would make this a possibility.

I'm not bashing the Lions and I apologize if it came off that way. I just believe Detroit could have a dominant OL if they added the top OL and believe Robinson would help the offense in more areas than Watkins would. It is just my opinion.

 

[Old Lion]

If it were me I would move Robinson to RT and Waddle to LT and Reiff to G. Waddle might actually make a better LT then all of them.

 

[broncosmitty]

If it were me I would move Robinson to RT and Waddle to LT and Reiff to G. Waddle might actually make a better LT then all of them.

Reiff would prolly be sick as hell as a gaurd. Would Sims have any value in a trade? (Im not really even letting myself think Tackle is an option with two very young guys there right now. But I've let myself think much crazier things.)

 

[gandydancer]

And I am not 'bashing' Waddle. I think he was superb find for the Lions as an undrafted FA. I think he could be a serviceable RT for many years if the Lions choose to go that route. I was just stating that -- adding Robinson, who is the top run blocker and either putting him at RT or shifting Reiff to RT, would give the Lions a chance to have one of the best OL in football.

Reiff's strength coming out of college was his run blocking. When he wasn't starting as a rookie, Detroit even put in packages to get him on the field to run block. Saying Reiff wouldn't be an upgrade over Waddle, whose strength is pass protection seems crazy to me.

In the end -- all I'm really saying is -- If you add Robinson and give Detroit a run game that teams have to respect (i.e. move their safeties closer to the line of scrimmage) it will open up the vertical passing game for Detroit. If teams can just put 6 or 7 in the box and handle Detroit's running attack, as they've been doing -- Teams will continue to force Detroit to beat them underneath.

If Detroit wants to stop all the hits Calvin is taking -- run the ball consistently and you won't have to pass 35-40+ times a game to put points on the board. Adding a road grader, who is considered to be the best OL in the draft would make this a possibility.

I'm not bashing the Lions and I apologize if it came off that way. I just believe Detroit could have a dominant OL if they added the top OL and believe Robinson would help the offense in more areas than Watkins would. It is just my opinion.

First thanks for answering... way to fucking lengthy, but none the less... good thoughts in there.

Robinson was the top of my big board and still is. Don't want to move up to take anyone! Somewhere
along the way of the Watkins no Watkins saga. I said those same thoughts of taking Robinson. Then move either Reiff or Waddle to guard next year. Tpaul was right in saying move Reiff in. Instantly be a respectable running team.

On the second highlighted part. I felt the Lions could have ran it more last year. Linehan was the idiot in that case. How many 3rd and shorts did he pass after running for 7-9 yards on first down/ 2nd down INC. pass and then empty backfield on on 3rd. Lions passed 35-45 times a game because Linehan wanted to, not out of necessity. CJ getting battered is not because of too many passes in a game. It is a QB that makes terrible passes and CJ gets battered trying to catch them. That will not change if CJ only gets 8 targets a game and they run for 6.2 yards a carry. Although CJ will never get just 8 targets a game with Tate and Watkins on the field. Stafford will still force throws to a guy who has made him look borderline of becoming that so called elite QB.

 

[gandydancer]

Reiff would prolly be sick as hell as a gaurd. Would Sims have any value in a trade? (Im not really even letting myself think Tackle is an option with two very young guys there right now. But I've let myself think much crazier things.)

Sims would only bring maybe a 6th or 7th IMO. OldLion might be right in Waddle at LT who;s a better pass blocker and Warford and Robinson on right run blocking. That would make no sense to move up to take a RT though. That would be a good young line with Dom's replacement coming.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Sims would only bring maybe a 6th or 7th IMO. OldLion might be right in Waddle at LT who;s a better pass blocker and Warford and Robinson on right run blocking. That would make no sense to move up to take a RT though. That would be a good young line with Dom's replacement coming.

Agreed. Taking a RT in the top ten would be very Millen-esque.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Robinson was the top of my big board and still is. Don't want to move up to take anyone

I think you know I am right there with you when it comes to trading up. The only guy I wouldn't be terribly upset if they traded up to get is Clowney, because he has the chance to be dominant DE, which is huge in the NFL.

I was just stating Robinson would be a better option than Watkins IF they traded up.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Agreed. Taking a RT in the top ten would be very Millen-esque.

Greg Robinson will not be a RT in the NFL and wouldn't be a RT on the Lions, IMO. There are a handful of teams who could draft him where he would start at RT, like say Cleveland, because they have an all-pro at LT already.

 

[Old Lion]

Greg Robinson will not be a RT in the NFL and wouldn't be a RT on the Lions, IMO. There are a handful of teams who could draft him where he would start at RT, like say Cleveland, because they have an all-pro at LT already.

I don't understand why people think college players will be better than proven pros. Look at Luke Joekel. He was the number 1 tackle coming out and he has struggled. Robinson is no guarantee to be anything special. Saying he would play LT for any team without an all pro there is ludicrous, IMO. He would get a chance to prove if he can be successful at the pro level only with a team that is weak at the position. Both Reiff and Waddle proved they can play well in the pros already. Case closed.

I said it earlier and I will say it again. Clowney is the only player in the draft with pro level talent already. Even he will need to keep his head on straight to be successful. The rest will need to be coached up.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't understand why people think college players will be better than proven pros. Look at Luke Joekel.

OT is a position that translates very well to the NFL. The top rated OL, many more times than not, will be an instant starter based on talent alone over someone who has experience.

I am not even aware of what Luke Joeckel did last year, as I haven't read much about him, so I'd have to look it up. But over the last couple years -- the 1st OT off the board has become a pro bowl level player in the NFL. Here are the top tackles drafted over the past 7 or 8 years. Joe Thomas, Trent Williams, D'Brickishaw Ferguson, Tyron Smith, Matt Khalil, Jake Long. The one guy who hasn't is Jason Smith.

Thomas, Williams, Ferguson, Smith, Khalil and Jake Long have all been pro bowl Tackles. Some of them were pro bowlers their first year at the position. Others took a year or so to earn a trip. But the end result with the exception of Jason Smith is a top 10 talent at the LT position.

Eric Fisher was actually the #1 OT drafted last year and I don't think he fared too well last year, but I haven't read much on him either, so I could be wrong.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Greg Robinson will not be a RT in the NFL and wouldn't be a RT on the Lions, IMO. There are a handful of teams who could draft him where he would start at RT, like say Cleveland, because they have an all-pro at LT already.

I agree that he isn't/won't be a RT, because of the value of that position relative to where he's going to be drafted. He's very much a Duane Brown/Joe Staley-type LT in my opinion. Not the very best pass blocker out there, but great against the run and a helluva combination tackle. If he fell to us at #10 I'd be fine with drafting him and moving Reiff to Sims' spot and try to deal Sims for a late-round pick...

 

[Naughtymax]

I don't understand why people think college players will be better than proven pros. Look at Luke Joekel. He was the number 1 tackle coming out and he has struggled. Robinson is no guarantee to be anything special. Saying he would play LT for any team without an all pro there is ludicrous, IMO. He would get a chance to prove if he can be successful at the pro level only with a team that is weak at the position. Both Reiff and Waddle proved they can play well in the pros already. Case closed.

I said it earlier and I will say it again. Clowney is the only player in the draft with pro level talent already. Even he will need to keep his head on straight to be successful. The rest will need to be coached up.

OL not nearly enough of a current need to take one at 10. I'd love to have Matthews' reliability on the line, but if he drops to 10 I'd rather get a haul from the Giants, or Pittsburgh (not their style), or Miami, or Carolina than take him. Same if the 3 QBs are there - let the bidding war begin.

No interest in trading up unless it's practically free.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

He would get a chance to prove if he can be successful at the pro level only with a team that is weak at the position. Both Reiff and Waddle proved they can play well in the pros already. Case closed.

Question -- Greg Robinson falls to the Lions at #10. You honestly believe the Lions pass on Robinson, because they have an undrafted FA, who took over the starting job, because the guy who beat him out in camp was injured?

If you have the chance to take a franchise OL, who they project could be one of the best OL in the NFL within a couple years -- you take him. Especially one they are talking about being athletic enough to play LT, but also could be the best run blocking OT in quite some time.

IMO, Detroit could draft Robinson and he could take his pick on what tackle position on the Lions he'd like to play and he'd be a monster upgrade.

If Waddle is your cup of tea -- leave him at RT, move Reiff inside to G and put Robinson at LT. If you want to wait till Sims is gone -- move Reiff to RT, Waddle can be ready if someone is injured and Robinson takes over LT. If you want to run the ball down people's throats -- Leave Reiff at LT, put Robinson at RT next to Warford and force teams to move their safeties closer to the line of scrimmage.

 

[Rollingthndr]

Question -- Greg Robinson falls to the Lions at #10. You honestly believe the Lions pass on Robinson, because they have an undrafted FA, who took over the starting job, because the guy who beat him out in camp was injured?

If Robinson fell to #10. No way in hell you pass on him. Way to dominant. Put him at RT next to Warford, they might even make Leshoure look good.

 

[Thruthefog]

Warford, Robinson, Pettigrew.

Mwahahaha.