Thoughts on trading up

[Gulf of Brazil]

Teams also change up their philosophy from draft to draft of players brought in for visits or private workouts in correlation as to whom they actually draft. It's nothing more than a diversionary tactic so as other teams can't get a read on what said team has done in the past.


We never heard/read a public likening regarding Ansah last year compared to all the OT's like Fisher, Joeckle or Johnson.


If I'm not mistaken, rarely had Mayhew drafted a 1st round pick that was brought into the team Facilities. I could very well be wrong but we had touched on this topic also.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Ifbthey want to trade up, they will try regardless. Who could they possibly be fooling here by expressing interest in Watkins?

Agree with you wholeheartedly -- if the Lions want to trade up, they will try to regardless. IF Watkins is the guy they want and you have multiple teams drafting in front of you that could draft a WR (like say (Oakland, Buffalo and Tampa Bay, with a long shot of Cleveland) -- Why would you want to make it known Watkins is the guy you want?

That is the ONLY reason I don't think Watkins is the guy they want and something is up. It can only drive the asking price up to trade with St. Louis, unless the deal includes the trade of a player currently on the Lions roster (which isn't the case, as Suh would be the only viable player and STL isn't trading for him).

By making it known Watkins is the guy you want -- teams like Oakland, Buffalo, Tampa Bay and Cleveland could easily make a better offer than the Lions if Watkins is who they want.

 

[lionstop1]

The asking price will be created by th he market...and there is always a market. Other teams are already in the mix if they want to move upup and even if they believe Detroit or any other team wants to, it still doesn't change much. I see a advantage in making it public although I dont think the Lions have did all of it just for the public eye. They dont gain anything by keeping it a secret.

Do the math here. There are four guys teams will consider moving up for, not eight or seven. There is a zero percent chance that any of them fall out of the top five, so hoping that happens by saying they like Watkins would be a waste of time. Secondly, if there are only four guys, why would the Lions try to induce teams to jump up for Watkins or even make it known that they like one of the top players? On top of all that, other teams may also believe that the Lions are targeting someone else as they are not fools. The Lions have needs at OLB and could use Clowney.

And here's the facts that should toss out the idea of a smokescreen:

For Clowney, teams would have to get up to #1.
For Robinson, Mack or Watkins, pick #2 or possibly #3 is where you have to be.

Every team and GM knows this and the highest bidder wins. The Lions just happen to be making their interest known.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

There are four guys teams will consider moving up for, not eight or seven. There is a zero percent chance that any of them fall out of the top five, so hoping that happens by saying they like Watkins would be a waste of time.

While I do agree -- it'd seem as if there is only a handful of guys teams would consider moving up for. It is impossible to say there is a zero percent chance any of them fall out of the top 5.

This draft is wide open. If you looked at 10 mock drafts, you will see 10 different scenarios for the top 5. We only know what the draft analysts are saying. There could 3 QB's drafted in the top 10, there could be zero QB's drafted in the top 10. No one even knows what Houston is going to to do with the #1 pick. They could draft a QB, DE, OLB or trade the pick.

Nothing is set in stone in this year's draft.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

For Clowney, teams would have to get up to #1.
For Robinson, Mack or Watkins, pick #2 or possibly #3 is where you have to be.

Every team and GM knows this and the highest bidder wins. The Lions just happen to be making their interest known.

You just named Clowney, Robinson, Mack and Watkins and said if you wanted to draft one of these guys -- You'd have to trade up to #1 or #2 overall and possibly #3. That is 4 players you named.

 

[lionstop1]

Im just saying that if a team wants any one of those four, they will have to get up to at least #3. I haven't heard anything about a team possibly wanting to come up for Robinson so Im really kind of overlooking him as a trade option.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Im just saying that if a team wants any one of those four, they will have to get up to at least #3. I haven't heard anything about a team possibly wanting to come up for Robinson so Im really kind of overlooking him as a trade option.

Robinson is actually one of the guys I wouldn't mind the Lions moving up to draft. Everyone who wants the Lions to trade up to draft Watkins and saying how it will help Calvin Johnson should feel the same way too.

You want to save Calvin Johnson from taking hits -- Establish a running game that defenses have to respect. Detroit wouldn't have to throw the ball 35-40 times a game to get a win. Safeties would have to move closer to the line of scrimmage, instead of camping out 20+ yards away and all but daring the Lions to run the ball.

Robinson's run blocking alone would help the entire offense out, IF he is as good as advertised. I think Robinson would add much more value to the Lions offense than Watkins will, personally.

Of course, Robinson isn't a sexy pick, as he isn't a skill position player, but if he can run block in the NFL like they are talking about -- he would be upgrade the Lions LT position and Reiff could move to RT and would be an upgrade at RT. Pair those two with Warford and the Lions are looking at one of best OL talent wise in the NFL.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Robinson is actually one of the guys I wouldn't mind the Lions moving up to draft. Everyone who wants the Lions to trade up to draft Watkins and saying how it will help Calvin Johnson should feel the same way too.

You want to save Calvin Johnson from taking hits -- Establish a running game that defenses have to respect. Detroit wouldn't have to throw the ball 35-40 times a game to get a win. Safeties would have to move closer to the line of scrimmage, instead of camping out 20+ yards away and all but daring the Lions to run the ball.

Robinson's run blocking alone would help the entire offense out, IF he is as good as advertised. I think Robinson would add much more value to the Lions offense than Watkins will, personally.

Of course, Robinson isn't a sexy pick, as he isn't a skill position player, but if he can run block in the NFL like they are talking about -- he would be upgrade the Lions LT position and Reiff could move to RT and would be an upgrade at RT. Pair those two with Warford and the Lions are looking at one of best OL talent wise in the NFL.

For what it's worth, I'd apply the exact same logic to trading up for Robinson that you apply to trading up for Watkins. We have two young OTs who both did very well last year, so why draft another one to fix what wasn't broken? You cite the run game as a beneficiary, but drafting Robinson would flip Reiff to RT, where Waddle has been lauded for his run blocking in-particular. So we'd get better at run blocking at LT, but possibly have a drop-off in run blocking at RT.

I love Robinson if he drops to #10, but I don't see any sense in trading up for a tackle when we're already strong at tackle and there's two other tackles rated very closely to Robinson whom we'd have a good crack at if we stay put at #10...

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I'm struggling to follow the thinking here. Perhaps we could pose the question in a different way. Is there even so much as one possible positive to the Lions making it very well known to the league that they are very interested in Watkins if they really are?

I think you are going to have a VERY hard time answering that question. I cant think of one single thing where the Lions benefit from being so public in their interest, and thats exactly why I dont think they are interested at all.

But there is a laundry list of disadvantages to it. Some of those have been mentioned already. If they are truly interested in him, or any player for that matter, telling everyone that will absolutely cost you more to get there.

You have told the teams at the top of the draft board that they have something you want, and apparently something you want badly. If I'm one of those teams then I have an absolute advantage. I dont have to move down, I could sit right in my spot and pick unless you make it worth my while to move. See the Suh negotiations for a perfect example of the leverage that brings. You have also opened the door to other teams, who havent been public with their interest, to enter trade up discussions because they know we are entered in them. This will of course drive the price up, both in terms of what you would figure you need to offer as a team but also what the team holding the pick you want will ask for (see the Suh negotiations again as an example).

Publically stating you want to get a guy that everyone knows you will have to move up to get hands leverage to your possible trade partners. I cant fathom the Lions are truly that stupid (its well established I think they are stupid but they cant be that stupid). I see this as nothing more than a bluff on the part of the Lions who want someone else to move up into one of those higher spots to take him so that it might push another player down a spot or two where they are truly looking to trade in to.

I dont know who that player might be or what spot, you could speculate all day long on that, but the Lions gain absolutely nothing whatsoever by being so open in their alledged interest in Watkins.

 

[Old Lion]

Robinson is actually one of the guys I wouldn't mind the Lions moving up to draft. Everyone who wants the Lions to trade up to draft Watkins and saying how it will help Calvin Johnson should feel the same way too.

You want to save Calvin Johnson from taking hits -- Establish a running game that defenses have to respect. Detroit wouldn't have to throw the ball 35-40 times a game to get a win. Safeties would have to move closer to the line of scrimmage, instead of camping out 20+ yards away and all but daring the Lions to run the ball.

Robinson's run blocking alone would help the entire offense out, IF he is as good as advertised. I think Robinson would add much more value to the Lions offense than Watkins will, personally.

Of course, Robinson isn't a sexy pick, as he isn't a skill position player, but if he can run block in the NFL like they are talking about -- he would be upgrade the Lions LT position and Reiff could move to RT and would be an upgrade at RT. Pair those two with Warford and the Lions are looking at one of best OL talent wise in the NFL.

Moving Reiff to RT would not an upgrade. Waddle looks to better than him. The only way it would work would be to kick Reiff in to Guard. I wonder if Sims could play center?

 

[Retroram52]

If the Lions are motivated, which apparently they are, I see them trading with the Rams or the Texans. This could be interesting.

 

[Microwahevo]

I think you are going to have a VERY hard time answering that question. I cant think of one single thing where the Lions benefit from being so public in their interest, and thats exactly why I dont think they are interested at all. If teams know were interested, they know for certain they'd get our #10 along with another pick(s) somewhere. Other teams may show interest, but if they're lower than us, it benefits them to trade with us bc they can grab someone higher.

That's off the top of my head. I may have more if think harder and longer.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

For what it's worth, I'd apply the exact same logic to trading up for Robinson that you apply to trading up for Watkins. We have two young OTs who both did very well last year, so why draft another one to fix what wasn't broken? You cite the run game as a beneficiary, but drafting Robinson would flip Reiff to RT, where Waddle has been lauded for his run blocking in-particular. So we'd get better at run blocking at LT, but possibly have a drop-off in run blocking at RT.

Maybe I am mssing something on Waddle. Where does it say he was lauded for his run-blocking? Everything I read is it was his pass blocking which was solid, and since he came from a pass heavy offense at Texas Tech -- that isn't surprising.

Something has to be missing. Warford was named one of the best Guards in the NFL regardless of the fact he is a rookie. If Waddle blocks like you are talking about -- either our RBs are not good or there is a hole somewhere.

Detroit should be able to line up and run the ball at will to the right side of their line if Waddle is a plus blocker like you are saying and he is teamed with Warford. Teams lined up their safeties 20+ yards off the line of scrimmage every game still, so Detroit's rushing attack should have been way better than they were.

Basically what I'm saying is -- Detroit is basically facing a hat on hat on the OL the vast majority of the time. You don't see teams stacking the box to stop the run, nor do you see teams blitzing like crazy against the Lions because of Calvin Johnson. So someone on the OL wasn't very good at blocking against the run. It wasn't Warford. It has been stated Raiola was the #2 rated Center in the league by PFF. Reiff is on the left side of the line protecting the QB's blind side. So someone on the right side of the line wasn't as effective as we have talked about.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

If teams know were interested, they know for certain they'd get our #10 along with another pick(s) somewhere. Other teams may show interest, but if they're lower than us, it benefits them to trade with us bc they can grab someone higher.

You can do let a team know you are interested without making blatant statements in the media though. That is the weirdest thing about the whole Watkins situation. Why announce it to the media -- to the point where you have sites like ESPN and CBS writing articles about how much Detroit loves Sammy Watkins.

They aren't writing articles about Detroit and Mack or Robinson or Clowney, even though they met with all of them at the combine and had them in AP for a pre-draft visit.

Something is just odd with the whole thing.

 

[lionstop1]

Its not as if the Lions are putting it out in public on purpose is what I'm saying. Its the media that has followed this thing very closely from the beginning.

It seems as if you guys think that the only way other teams will be interested in trading up for Watkins is if they know the Lions are. Teams that are interested have been for a long time and they are all aware of having to get to at least #2 for his services. The Lions pick at 10, so it doesnt do them any good to keep quiet about moving up when they would have to get to #2 no matter what.

Whether they kept it quiet or not, they still have to put a deal on the table that is better than what the other teams offer. Other teams dont know exactly what Detroit might offer so its not real easy to put a better deal down.

 

[lionstop1]

Exactly Micro. That way, said team could start to plan for who could be available at #10.

 

[Gulf of Brazil]

Trade up Trade down.....

I'll take two DB's,,,,, please


and one receiver

 

[lionstop1]

TrustmeImright, couldn't that just mean that the media is blowing it out of proportion!

 

[tpaulus_2]

Maybe I am mssing something on Waddle. Where does it say he was lauded for his run-blocking? Everything I read is it was his pass blocking which was solid, and since he came from a pass heavy offense at Texas Tech -- that isn't surprising.

Something has to be missing. Warford was named one of the best Guards in the NFL regardless of the fact he is a rookie. If Waddle blocks like you are talking about -- either our RBs are not good or there is a hole somewhere.

Detroit should be able to line up and run the ball at will to the right side of their line if Waddle is a plus blocker like you are saying and he is teamed with Warford. Teams lined up their safeties 20+ yards off the line of scrimmage every game still, so Detroit's rushing attack should have been way better than they were.

Basically what I'm saying is -- Detroit is basically facing a hat on hat on the OL the vast majority of the time. You don't see teams stacking the box to stop the run, nor do you see teams blitzing like crazy against the Lions because of Calvin Johnson. So someone on the OL wasn't very good at blocking against the run. It wasn't Warford. It has been stated Raiola was the #2 rated Center in the league by PFF. Reiff is on the left side of the line protecting the QB's blind side. So someone on the right side of the line wasn't as effective as we have talked about.

I'm not digging up the articles, but they're out there, and they hit on all those "ifs" that you're tossing out. Mlive had one showing how well we ran behind Warford and Waddle.

Also, what are these statements based on?

"...so Detroit's rushing attack should have been way better than they were."

"So someone on the right side of the line wasn't as effective as we have talked about."

"So someone on the OL wasn't very good at blocking against the run."

You keep making these comments as if we had a horrible running game last year, which really wasn't the case at all... We were still a pass-first offense under Linehan, but we finally ran the ball effectively last season. What gives?

 

[tpaulus_2]

Here's on that touches on Waddle's good performance against Dallas, but it's not the article I'm thinking of...