The Time Has Come to Vote - Malik or Oz?

[ATL96Steeler]

I will be very surprised if the FO chooses to tag Brock. That would cost nearly $20 million. Miller, on the other hand, costs closer to $15 million to tag.

You do make a good point that having the three good lineman, however, makes the edge rushers more effective. I hope that the team is able to keep Jackson, but I won't be surprised if a team with plenty of cap space (e.g., Oakland) makes him an offer that Denver just can't afford to compete with.

Miller...I can understand being a little gun shy after Bebe's extension, but VM is truly a top 10-15 player in the entire league regardless of position...why kick the tires for another year? You know what you got there...bite the bullet.

Brock...yeah, the tag is going to cost a lot, but you're simply replacing the starting QB CH slot...Manning was already in that $18 to $20 mil vein...right?

Now...if you can sign Brock to a Kaep like long term contract laden with a lot of roster bonuses vs signing bonuses. In that case, I might choose to sign Brock if I can shield myself from long term massive CHs if he's not the guy everyone thought he might be.

Jackson is clearly the better, more proven player, but no question it will be easier to replace him than a QB...I just don't really know what kind of QB I have.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Miller...I can understand being a little gun shy after Bebe's extension, but VM is truly a top 10-15 player in the entire league regardless of position...why kick the tires for another year? You know what you got there...bite the bullet.

Brock...yeah, the tag is going to cost a lot, but you're simply replacing the starting QB CH slot...Manning was already in that $18 to $20 mil vein...right?

Now...if you can sign Brock to a Kaep like long term contract laden with a lot of roster bonuses vs signing bonuses. In that case, I might choose to sign Brock if I can shield myself from long term massive CHs if he's not the guy everyone thought he might be.

Jackson is clearly the better, more proven player, but no question it will be easier to replace him than a QB...I just don't really know what kind of QB I have.

Tagging guys before extending them is something that Elway has done with Prater, Clady, and DT. All three of those guys were tagged, but none of the three ended up playing under the terms of the tag. I think that is also what Elway plans to do with Miller, since he is well aware of how valuable Miller is.

 

[randymon]

I am beginning to think that it might just end up being too expensive to sign both Jackson and Oz. There seem to be a number of teams that have a lot of cap space. Jackson is a proven commodity as both a 3-4 and a 4-3 player. And there is certainly a history of unproven QBs getting big free agent contracts. So, I think both players are likely to get offers higher than what Elway is prepared to pay.

That might not be entirely bad, though, if we could draft a replacement for Jackson in the first two rounds (and maybe a LT with the other of those two picks), get a young QB like Prescott in the third round, and perhaps bring in a veteran QB (maybe RG3).

RG3 is a gifted athlete that doesn't have nor will be ever have the QB smarts it takes to play that position. Give it up on that guy. Tebow is same category. Sometimes I just wonder what or if some people actually really have watched these guys and heard the critique on them from the coaches and players that have actually played with them. Believe me, it's all negative but if seeing is your believing....go watch the tape on them.Funny how there's so much criticism on Mannings arm and most is deserving but you get these "guys" that think the guy with the worst arm possibly ever in the NFL, Tebow, would be a good fit for Denver and an upgrade over Manning. That's pure mind boggling.

 

[Broncosr0k]

Miller...I can understand being a little gun shy after Bebe's extension, but VM is truly a top 10-15 player in the entire league regardless of position...why kick the tires for another year? You know what you got there...bite the bullet.

We would likely save money this year against the Cap as Von Miller will be highest paid player at his position. Also being a year removed from SB MVP reduces the weight of the argument that since he had such a killer year and was SB MVP he deserves a lot of money. (As an aside, he deserves to get paid. This is looking at it from a team perspective.)

Brock...yeah, the tag is going to cost a lot, but you're simply replacing the starting QB CH slot...Manning was already in that $18 to $20 mil vein...right?

Manning is not worth the 20 million and neither is Osweiler, yet. Can you tell me Oz deserves top 5 QB money based on his 7 game performance? I don't think he is there yet. There is also the issue of signing Von now and Oz to tag would guarantee losing some talent at other places and asking quite a few vets to take a pay cut. That is a big gamble.

Funny how there's so much criticism on Mannings arm and most is deserving but you get these "guys" that think the guy with the worst arm possibly ever in the NFL, Tebow, would be a good fit for Denver and an upgrade over Manning. That's pure mind boggling.

I don't think Megalodon was asking about going after Tebow again. I think he was merely speculating as to whether Tebow would have done enough as QB to win the SB with this defense. A lot of us are pretty rough on Tebow and Mega has liked the guy for quite sometime. It was another chance to ask if Tebow could be an NFL QB.

 

[TDs3nOut]

RG3 is a gifted athlete that doesn't have nor will be ever have the QB smarts it takes to play that position.

That is a forcefully expressed opinion. Fact of the matter, of course, is that it is merely your opinion. He was actually a very good NFL QB his rookie year. That's probably why he won NFC Offensive Rookie of the Year and helped Washington to its first playoff appearance in five years, during which he suffered a knee injury. I'll never get why Shanahan left him in that game to basically play on one leg, but, of course, that is just my opinion.

I have read other opinions that are consistent with your claim that Griffin is unwilling to put in the film study and work required to regain the promise he showed as a rookie. In my opinion, however, Elway and Kubiak both know a good bit about what it takes to successfully play NFL QB, particularly in the WCO that Griffin ran as a rookie. I also suspect that Elway and Kubiak have the credentials that might get Griffin's attention to put in the requisite work in order to resurrect his career in the league.

Perhaps you are right that Griffin "doesn't have nor will be ever have the QB smarts it takes to play that position", but I don't know that that is true. In fact, I can't think of a team in the league that might give him a better chance than the Broncos to regain that form he displayed as a rookie.

 

[megalodon30]

In fact, I can't think of a team in the league that might give him a better chance than the Broncos to regain that form he displayed as a rookie.

I don't think Denver is his best chance to regain form. He doesn't handle pressure well, and our o-line wasn't the greatest at pass blocking this year. He'd get smashed here just as much if not more than he did in Washington. End up more broken than he already is.

 

[TDs3nOut]

I don't think Denver is his best chance to regain form. He doesn't handle pressure well, and our o-line wasn't the greatest at pass blocking this year. He'd get smashed here just as much if not more than he did in Washington. End up more broken than he already is.

Perhaps you are right. Personally, I'm hoping that our offensive line is much improved over this past season. Also think that Griffin could run the bootleg much more effectively than either Oz or Manning.

 

[megalodon30]

I'm hoping that our offensive line is much improved over this past season.

Me too.

Griffin could run the bootleg much more effectively than either Oz

Probably.

or Manning.

Definitely.

 

[randymon]

That is a forcefully expressed opinion. Fact of the matter, of course, is that it is merely your opinion. He was actually a very good NFL QB his rookie year. That's probably why he won NFC Offensive Rookie of the Year and helped Washington to its first playoff appearance in five years, during which he suffered a knee injury. I'll never get why Shanahan left him in that game to basically play on one leg, but, of course, that is just my opinion.

I have read other opinions that are consistent with your claim that Griffin is unwilling to put in the film study and work required to regain the promise he showed as a rookie. In my opinion, however, Elway and Kubiak both know a good bit about what it takes to successfully play NFL QB, particularly in the WCO that Griffin ran as a rookie. I also suspect that Elway and Kubiak have the credentials that might get Griffin's attention to put in the requisite work in order to resurrect his career in the league.

Perhaps you are right that Griffin "doesn't have nor will be ever have the QB smarts it takes to play that position", but I don't know that that is true. In fact, I can't think of a team in the league that might give him a better chance than the Broncos to regain that form he displayed as a rookie.

First off, your a good man TD and always have good opinions and observations but RG wouldn't be the first qb that had a good rookie season that fizzled out from there. Most teams made adjustments to him after 1st meeting,which is the norm, adjusted to his running ability and forced him to beat them thru the air and he has failed miserably. He's had opportunities to improve on this and to me it's obvious that #1. As you stated, he doesn't want to put the work in needed and #2 he doesn't have the football IQ needed either. People can make as many excuses for him they want and hold on to that illusion of him being a starting qb and having success all they want. I'm just not one of them. I would take a chance on Tebow first. Joke.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Me too.



Probably.



Definitely.

Griffin is obviously not a sure thing to ever regain the promise that he showed as a rookie. Seems to me, however, that there aren't a lot of sure things that are readily available to the Broncos next season at the QB position. Given Griffin's success as a rookie playing for Shanahan, I just feel like him playing for Kubiak and Elway, two guys know a pretty good bit about what it takes to succeed as WCO QB, isn't too bad a bet.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

We would likely save money this year against the Cap as Von Miller will be highest paid player at his position. Also being a year removed from SB MVP reduces the weight of the argument that since he had such a killer year and was SB MVP he deserves a lot of money. (As an aside, he deserves to get paid. This is looking at it from a team perspective.)



Manning is not worth the 20 million and neither is Osweiler, yet. Can you tell me Oz deserves top 5 QB money based on his 7 game performance? I don't think he is there yet. There is also the issue of signing Von now and Oz to tag would guarantee losing some talent at other places and asking quite a few vets to take a pay cut. That is a big gamble.



I don't think Megalodon was asking about going after Tebow again. I think he was merely speculating as to whether Tebow would have done enough as QB to win the SB with this defense. A lot of us are pretty rough on Tebow and Mega has liked the guy for quite sometime. It was another chance to ask if Tebow could be an NFL QB.

Miller...imo he's reached the pinnacle...meaning I don't see him getting a whole lot better than he his today. That said...if you franchise him, you have to be willing to lose him the following year...he's too young to let go imo, At the same time, NE was noted for letting guys go while they were in their prime, and PIT did as well before the Rooneys realized that FA was going to be a way of life in the NFL and they needed to sign their own at the very least or they would continue to be the training ground for the NFL.

QBs...I agree 100% on both, neither are worth that kind of money now, and CD will tell you from past chats on Os...I haven't been as high on him as the Bronco fan base...a long term deal has to have some outs that won't kill the team financially.

Tebow...probably was directed to someone else I'm thinking.

 

[megalodon30]

Griffin is obviously not a sure thing to ever regain the promise that he showed as a rookie. Seems to me, however, that there aren't a lot of sure things that are readily available to the Broncos next season at the QB position. Given Griffin's success as a rookie playing for Shanahan, I just feel like him playing for Kubiak and Elway, two guys know a pretty good bit about what it takes to succeed as WCO QB, isn't too bad a bet.

That's a good point. As for next year, Osweiler should be the starter. But if some other team gives him a kings ransom and we don't want to match, we could do worse than RG3.

 

[cdumler7]

Well didn't figure I could tag all the posts out there...

@randymon I have watched a lot of RGIII from his days in college to his first couple of years in the pros. There is a lot to like about this kid and a lot to hate. There are some huge differences between RGIII and that of Tebow. RGIII actually has an NFL arm. He can make all the throws and is actually a pretty accurate passer. He is that true duel threat QB (when healthy...get to that in a second) that like we just saw with Cam can force defenses to have to really respect that this kid can take off at any moment and kill you with his legs just as much as his arm. He also improves the run game day 1 just because defenses have to respect that he could keep the ball at any moment. You have to truly play 11-on-11 football.

Now what not to like...He does seem to have an attitude problem. Now I do like to think that him being benched the better part of 2 years has humbled the kid a bit. Him having immediate success honestly I think was one of the worst things for him because he found himself untouchable. His injuries though limited his abilities in year 2 and 3. Without his incredible athleticism teams stopped respecting his ability to get to the edges and him playing from the pocket was something he was rarely taught. Have to remember though Kubiak's system has a lot of misdirection and is one that Kubiak can play to RGIII's strength's by getting him on the outside edge and honestly only having to read 2 receiving options of usually a lower more safe throw and then of course the receiver going deep.

Finally there is a reason the Broncos are talking internally about RGIII. He does fit this system and has played with a similar coach in Shanahan. Really the Broncos have the best inside source on the situation with Shanahan living in Denver. Just have to drive down to his restaurant and ask him. I'm guessing since the Broncos are possibly considering RGIII plan B that means they have spoke to Shanahan and felt comfortable enough to have that be an option.

@ATL96Steeler The Broncos are not going to Franchise Tag Osweiler. $20 million for 1-year of service is just too much when you add in then if we do sign Von to a long-term deal his will be at the very least $17 million a year. Throw in the Broncos starting point for Osweiler is $10 million from what I understand. No way they are signing him to play at double that price. From what I understand the Broncos are at $10 million and Osweiler's side is somewhere between $12-14 million. They are looking at a 3-4 year deal with the Broncos most likely being able to get out of the deal after year 2.

 

[TDs3nOut]

The only valid comparison between Griffin and Tebow, in my opinion, is that both were great college QBs. In fact, Tebow is arguably among the greatest college QBs of all-time. Griffin was by far the better NFL QB, however. Don't know if he can ever recapture the promise he showed his rookie year, but he is far more likely than Tebow to ever resurrect his NFL career.

 

[cdumler7]

The only valid comparison between Griffin and Tebow, in my opinion, is that both were great college QBs. In fact, Tebow is arguably among the greatest college QBs of all-time. Griffin was by far the better NFL QB, however. Don't know if he can ever recapture the promise he showed his rookie year, but he is far more likely than Tebow to ever resurrect his NFL career.

I honestly like the idea of Kubiak working with him. Everywhere he has gone Kubiak has had his QB's playing some of their best football of their career (except Peyton this year). Him being a past QB I think he just knows what is going through their head. So if there is anybody that can work with RGIII and help him get the mental part of the game then to me it is Kubiak. Throw in part of why QB's do so well with Kubiak is he simplifies the system. Instead of having 5 routes always running he will tell a QB that they have 2 reads and if those 2 reads are not open then throw the ball away. He will also make it where on especially the bootleg plays where both reads are on the same side of the field so you only have to be looking down half the field instead of scanning the entire field. To me that just plays to the strengths of a guy like RGIII and can help build back up some of his confidence.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Shanahan made Jake Plummer a pretty decent NFL QB -- except for allowing him to throw with his left hand (only once, though). Surely there is at least a chance that Kubiak can make Griffin at least play to that level. Remember ... our defense and special teams are now pretty special.

 

[Mingo]

It just amazes me how some think you can just plug and play any qb in an offense. How come the Jets and the Rams with those top great D couldn't pull off a trip to the SB? Because they didn't have a qb to that could make critical calls in critical situations in big games. I have to assume to believe Geno Smith or Whitehurst could have done just as good as Manning and Denver would still of won SB with their D. Yeah, Manning never made any critical plays all season that at least produce enough points to win all those close games all year. Just simply rediculous

In a 32 team league - Peyton Manning was the 27th rated QB and Oz was the 31st - we are talking Blaine Gabbert territory - did you actually watch the season? Peyton's smarts were offset by 9TDS and 17 interceptions - and 16 sacks for the regular season.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Well didn't figure I could tag all the posts out there...

The Broncos are not going to Franchise Tag Osweiler. $20 million for 1-year of service is just too much when you add in then if we do sign Von to a long-term deal his will be at the very least $17 million a year. Throw in the Broncos starting point for Osweiler is $10 million from what I understand. No way they are signing him to play at double that price. From what I understand the Broncos are at $10 million and Osweiler's side is somewhere between $12-14 million. They are looking at a 3-4 year deal with the Broncos most likely being able to get out of the deal after year 2.

I think you already know how I feel about Os...promising but sample size too small so I wouldn't either. That's the lessor of the two evils, if you will to keep Jackson and Os. Nature of the beast when you win it all..hard to retain every key player.

I just heard talks have fallen off in DC with Cousins who was in a similar situation...I think these agents just don't really know the true market value for their clients so they are naturally shooting high and hope it sticks. WAS will most likely tag Cousins because they don't have many other options

 

[randymon]

I honestly like the idea of Kubiak working with him. Everywhere he has gone Kubiak has had his QB's playing some of their best football of their career (except Peyton this year). Him being a past QB I think he just knows what is going through their head. So if there is anybody that can work with RGIII and help him get the mental part of the game then to me it is Kubiak. Throw in part of why QB's do so well with Kubiak is he simplifies the system. Instead of having 5 routes always running he will tell a QB that they have 2 reads and if those 2 reads are not open then throw the ball away. He will also make it where on especially the bootleg plays where both reads are on the same side of the field so you only have to be looking down half the field instead of scanning the entire field. To me that just plays to the strengths of a guy like RGIII and can help build back up some of his confidence.

Yeah and every defense will know this and jam his first two reads and then he'll hold the ball too long,get sacked and fumble or he will panic and completely miss the wr and throw it 10 yds over his head to the safety for a pk. Your basically saying Denver needs to simplify their offense just like they did with Tebow with a guy that was a starter and rookie mvp his first year. Look I`m not saying RG isn`t intelligent at all. Pretty sure he had a very high GPA at Baylor ( law degree maybe? Might have wrong guy ) but that doesn`t mean he can grasp reading defenses which is critical at least to a strong degree to win ball games. Your also saying that the coaching he`s had and who have worked very hard with him must be a bunch of clueless idiots and Kubiak is the "troubled qb " guru for some reason. I`m willing to say if you want to take a chance on him you bring him in as a back up to Brock and then we`ll see if he can earn his way into the starting gig. But to really think what this guy has shown skill wise and attitude wise since his rookie season that he would come to Denver and after they baby him and make your offense basically a beginning math class for him, that maybe he`ll become the next Russell Wilson!! Sorry but I think the guy is what he`s shown and if he can`t put the big boy pants on and learn to play the big boy game that translates to being a quality qb then it is what it is.

 

[cdumler7]

In a 32 team league - Peyton Manning was the 27th rated QB and Oz was the 31st - we are talking Blaine Gabbert territory - did you actually watch the season? Peyton's smarts were offset by 9TDS and 17 interceptions - and 16 sacks for the regular season.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

I would also question some of Peyton's decision making this past season. I think with our OL being what it was this past season Manning just seemed to go to his first read quite a bit and with teams creeping up like they were they easily jumped a lot of his routes. It is what lead to so many Pick-6's where he missed a guy dropping right into the zone spot where his receiver was going. This new offense just made him uncomfortable and he just seemed to want to stick to what he knew. Which hey can't blame him when his style has had success for so long but when he is running one system and Kubiak is telling the offense to run another it just doesn't work out well.