The Pats penalty for deflategate.

[cdumler7]

So your tossing BB from the league, even though he was cleared? Do you always just assume someone who did something in the past is guilty again?

Also are you suspending Luck and punishing the Colts? I mean 4/5 balls were under inflated, then they decided they did not have time to measure the rest.

Brady retires.....Oh well...

It isn't unheard of though...Look at the Saints situation in they found that Payton had no knowledge of the situation but because he is the head coach he is still held responsible for what those he is in charge of do. They suspended him for a year. So again not completely unheard of.

Also the $25,000 fine for the deflated footballs is not really going to be the big issue when it comes to the penalty. The rule itself is more if a team is found to have deflated or inflated footballs this is the penalty. It says nothing about if a team is deliberately doing this. Throw in then the fact that there was a bribe paid, players and faculty lying to the NFL of what they were doing, and the fact that Brady himself tried to hinder the investigation.

 

[PatsFan2003]

It isn't unheard of though...Look at the Saints situation in they found that Payton had no knowledge of the situation but because he is the head coach he is still held responsible for what those he is in charge of do. They suspended him for a year. So again not completely unheard of.

Also the $25,000 fine for the deflated footballs is not really going to be the big issue when it comes to the penalty. The rule itself is more if a team is found to have deflated or inflated footballs this is the penalty. It says nothing about if a team is deliberately doing this. Throw in then the fact that there was a bribe paid, players and faculty lying to the NFL of what they were doing, and the fact that Brady himself tried to hinder the investigation.

For that reason I think Patriots will be fined a moderate amount and lose a draft pick. I don't think Belichick will be suspended at all.

As much as some are appalled by the crime of deflating a football, I think it pales in comparison to the idea of providing direct financial incentives for injuring other players. I think that's why Payton got hammered so badly.

 

[cdumler7]

For that reason I think Patriots will be fined a moderate amount and lose a draft pick. I don't think Belichick will be suspended at all.

As much as some are appalled by the crime of deflating a football, I think it pales in comparison to the idea of providing direct financial incentives for injuring other players. I think that's why Payton got hammered so badly.

True but I would say the fact that this is strike 3 with the SpyGate, Hernandez, and now this that the NFL still could come down hard. It does seem that most of the huge controversies over the last 10 years in the NFL the Patriots have been attached to it. Again I said most. Now even though this is what I would consider a lesser situation than that of Bountygate that was their first offense. Being a 3rd offense usually a judge will come down harder. I know they are not actual judges but I am sure whoever is making the decision that is weighing a bit into the situation especially considering public opinion in this whole matter for the most part outside of Boston is that of burn them at the stake. I know that is a bit extreme but there is outrage among fans and the NFL is about protecting the shield and protecting their profits so if they think handing out a minimal punishment will hurt the bottom dollar they won't stand for that.

 

[PatsFan2003]

True but I would say the fact that this is strike 3 with the SpyGate, Hernandez, and now this that the NFL still could come down hard. It does seem that most of the huge controversies over the last 10 years in the NFL the Patriots have been attached to it. Again I said most. Now even though this is what I would consider a lesser situation than that of Bountygate that was their first offense. Being a 3rd offense usually a judge will come down harder. I know they are not actual judges but I am sure whoever is making the decision that is weighing a bit into the situation especially considering public opinion in this whole matter for the most part outside of Boston is that of burn them at the stake. I know that is a bit extreme but there is outrage among fans and the NFL is about protecting the shield and protecting their profits so if they think handing out a minimal punishment will hurt the bottom dollar they won't stand for that.

I think you are generally a pretty fair poster but I think to include the Hernandez issue as part of the 3 strikes is nonsense. As is the kowtowing to public opinion. Public opinion as you see it and public opinion which is as fleeting as the wind. After the Superbowl win I'll suggest that public opinion around the Patriots was much different regardless of the results of the investigation. People saw them win with a more probable than not chance that the footballs were just fine.

In the same way equating payment for injuries as a similar offense to doctoring footballs is like comparing a felony with a misdemeanor and saying they are equivalent.

I think you've lost your objectivity.

 

[cdumler7]

I think you are generally a pretty fair poster but I think to include the Hernandez issue as part of the 3 strikes is nonsense. As is the kowtowing to public opinion. Public opinion as you see it and public opinion which is as fleeting as the wind. After the Superbowl win I'll suggest that public opinion around the Patriots was much different regardless of the results of the investigation. People saw them win with a more probable than not chance that the footballs were just fine.

In the same way equating payment for injuries as a similar offense to doctoring footballs is like comparing a felony with a misdemeanor and saying they are equivalent.

I think you've lost your objectivity.

Again I never said they are the same. I said because this isn't the first offense of the Patriots that the punishment could be harsher than say if this was their first incident.

Also on the Hernandez thing the NFL has said that they are going to start holding teams a little more accountable for the actions of the players. They are trying to discourage teams from taking on huge character concerns as they know as we have seen with the domestic violence and child abuse and now murder about how badly that paints the NFL as just hosting a bunch of thugs and paying them lots of money. So yes I do think the league with what has come out of what the Patriots knew of Hernandez and his character concerns. A great example is they knew that he had been taken to civil court for shooting a man in the head and what do they do but give him a huge contract. So yes I do think that counts in all of this.

 

[cdumler7]

And maybe you are right I have lost some objectivity but I don't think there are many Patriots fans that can say they are being objective in this whole thing either. I have seen some of you step up and say how embarrassing this whole thing is but others just cannot accept that their organization has done something bad and that there could be some possibly harsh consequences that come because of that. From what I understand they are planning on giving the final verdict of what they are going to do in the next few days so we shall find out soon enough.

 

[ducky]

It isn't unheard of though...Look at the Saints situation in they found that Payton had no knowledge of the situation but because he is the head coach he is still held responsible for what those he is in charge of do. They suspended him for a year. So again not completely unheard of.

I don't know why that is public perception now. It's not true.

The NFL found that not only did Payton know about the bounty program when it was running but he then actively tried to cover it up when the NFL tried to investigate.

There were emails to Payton about the bounty program. In fact the worst part of it is that Payton was allowing OUTSIDE people to put money into the bounty pool. Quite honestly Payton is damn lucky he didn't get a lifetime ban. The fact that people outside the NFL were allowed to place money down with him to knock out the other team's players should have earned him a lot more than a 1 year suspension IMO. Maybe not a lifetime ban but he shouldn't be coaching right now IMO.

 

[PatsFan2003]

Again I never said they are the same. I said because this isn't the first offense of the Patriots that the punishment could be harsher than say if this was their first incident.

Also on the Hernandez thing the NFL has said that they are going to start holding teams a little more accountable for the actions of the players. They are trying to discourage teams from taking on huge character concerns as they know as we have seen with the domestic violence and child abuse and now murder about how badly that paints the NFL as just hosting a bunch of thugs and paying them lots of money. So yes I do think the league with what has come out of what the Patriots knew of Hernandez and his character concerns. A great example is they knew that he had been taken to civil court for shooting a man in the head and what do they do but give him a huge contract. So yes I do think that counts in all of this.

I think that CYA behavior after the fact by the NFL is ridiculous. Using the Patriots as a example after the fact would be completely unfair.

Yes, if it was the first offense I would think suspensions, draft pick losses and heavy fines would not be order.

In baseball this is the equivalent to cork bat, pine-tar and spitballs. All against the rules but sort of misdemeanors. So it would be fines all around.

 

[cdumler7]

I don't know why that is public perception now. It's not true.

The NFL found that not only did Payton know about the bounty program when it was running but he then actively tried to cover it up when the NFL tried to investigate.

There were emails to Payton about the bounty program. In fact the worst part of it is that Payton was allowing OUTSIDE people to put money into the bounty pool. Quite honestly Payton is damn lucky he didn't get a lifetime ban. The fact that people outside the NFL were allowed to place money down with him to knock out the other team's players should have earned him a lot more than a 1 year suspension IMO. Maybe not a lifetime ban but he shouldn't be coaching right now IMO.

Ok good point he knew a little of what was going on and was guilty by letting it happen under his nose a bit. He trusted Williams that it wasn't as serious as it was and well paid dearly for that decision. Now to me anyone who doesn't think BB knew something was going on has their head up in the clouds. Past employees have said that there is not a single thing that goes on in that building that BB doesn't know is going on. He makes sure that he has completely control of everything in the franchise. So something like this I just can't believe that he didn't have at least some kind of knowledge that this kind of thing was going on.

 

[cdumler7]

I think that CYA behavior after the fact by the NFL is ridiculous. Using the Patriots as a example after the fact would be completely unfair.

Yes, if it was the first offense I would think suspensions, draft pick losses and heavy fines would not be order.

In baseball this is the equivalent to cork bat, pine-tar and spitballs. All against the rules but sort of misdemeanors. So it would be fines all around.

And maybe it is but again the NFL will do everything to protect the NFL. Even if that means taking down one of their superstars. Look at last year with Adrian Peterson. They took him down big time. Now obviously child abuse is way more serious than that of deflating some footballs so again not trying to associate the two together but just showing the NFL is really cracking down harder than ever. The idea that in one of the biggest games of the year a team was caught cheating has to weigh into the factor. If this was a preseason game or even a regular season game I don't think this is the big deal that it is but this is the 2nd biggest game of the year with some of the highest tv viewership in the country for the entire year and this is what happens. Again not a first offense, on a huge stage with millions watching, and an NFL that wants to come across to the rest of the country as being of high moral upstanding. I just don't think it ends as easy as some of you Patriot fans think and probably not as harsh as some of us others think. The truth as in most cases will probably lie somewhere in the middle. The issue with that then is nobody is satisfied.

 

[PatsFan2003]

And maybe you are right I have lost some objectivity but I don't think there are many Patriots fans that can say they are being objective in this whole thing either. I have seen some of you step up and say how embarrassing this whole thing is but others just cannot accept that their organization has done something bad and that there could be some possibly harsh consequences that come because of that. From what I understand they are planning on giving the final verdict of what they are going to do in the next few days so we shall find out soon enough.

I admit I have my feet decidedly in both pools.

I think much of this is about the game of football and the Patriots are a victim actually of the new scrutiny that is the world today. These infractions are all examples of how the game has been played for years and now it's some massive crime of integrity?

I bring up past infractions because they didn't nearly get the moral outrage they are getting now. If they received any punishment at all. So imo the league has been guilty for years but now suddenly they want to appear as some moral institution without flaws? Please. And the fans of these teams conveniently minimize the significance because of these past transgression because of the passage of time? Please.

Today any of those offenses would garner a sh*tstorm, but back then it was "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying hard enough" It's not fair and it's hypocritical of fans to pass moral judgement without recognizing that. If fans seriously considered the impact these transgressions in today's world would bring they should breathe a sigh of relief!.


Some of it is good in terms of domestic abuse and the like but in the past a lot of these offenses were even considered part of the game and sometime even "colorful"

 

[ducky]

Ok good point he knew a little of what was going on and was guilty by letting it happen under his nose a bit. He trusted Williams that it wasn't as serious as it was and well paid dearly for that decision. Now to me anyone who doesn't think BB knew something was going on has their head up in the clouds. Past employees have said that there is not a single thing that goes on in that building that BB doesn't know is going on. He makes sure that he has completely control of everything in the franchise. So something like this I just can't believe that he didn't have at least some kind of knowledge that this kind of thing was going on.

Yeah I agree that BB knew. But the NFL can't prove it. And you can't suspend a guy for something that you can't prove he knew IMO.

I think BB completely walks with no punishment on this one (if he coaches long enough, they will get him on something else eventually....a leopard can't change his spots). Brady will get the most severe punishment (I think a 1 game ban MIGHT happen at most). And the Pat's get a meaningless slap on the wrist ($500K fine).

People looking for the hammer to come down are hoping against hope on this one. These infractions are pretty minor and the proof is less than concrete.

 

[cdumler7]

I admit I have my feet decidedly in both pools.

I think much of this is about the game of football and the Patriots are a victim actually of the new scrutiny that is the world today. These infractions are all examples of how the game has been played for years and now it's some massive crime of integrity?

I bring up past infractions because they didn't nearly get the moral outrage they are getting now. If they received any punishment at all. So imo the league has been guilty for years but now suddenly they want to appear as some moral institution without flaws? Please. And the fans of these teams conveniently minimize the significance because of these past transgression because of the passage of time? Please.

Today any of those offenses would garner a sh*tstorm, but back then it was "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying hard enough" It's not fair and it's hypocritical of fans to pass moral judgement without recognizing that.

Some of it is good in terms of domestic abuse and the like but in the past a lot of these offenses were even considered part of the game and sometime even "colorful"

It is a sign of the changing of the game. This is no longer your father's game but a whole new generation or even a couple of generations have joined in with the game and what the older generation could care less about and decided it was more about the product on the field than off of it is no longer in the majority. You have the younger generation that is growing up of blowing little things completely out of proportion. I've said before and I will say it again...I don't think the deflated football thing is that big of a deal. What the country is outraged by is somebody being caught lying to them. Now obviously that hasn't been proven without a shadow of doubt that Brady actually lied to the public but anymore even the perception that somebody has done something is enough to stir the whole country into an outrage. We have lost the whole innocent until proven guilty idea that our country has had for so long. This is again why I think the NFL will come down hard in this situation as they want to seem like the ones with the moral integrity.

 

[Oldschool739]

 

[PatsFan2003]

It is a sign of the changing of the game. This is no longer your father's game but a whole new generation or even a couple of generations have joined in with the game and what the older generation could care less about and decided it was more about the product on the field than off of it is no longer in the majority. You have the younger generation that is growing up of blowing little things completely out of proportion. I've said before and I will say it again...I don't think the deflated football thing is that big of a deal. What the country is outraged by is somebody being caught lying to them. Now obviously that hasn't been proven without a shadow of doubt that Brady actually lied to the public but anymore even the perception that somebody has done something is enough to stir the whole country into an outrage. We have lost the whole innocent until proven guilty idea that our country has had for so long. This is again why I think the NFL will come down hard in this situation as they want to seem like the ones with the moral integrity.

I understand that but the moral pontification is still too much, particularly by the fans.

It's highly likely that most successful franchises committed similar infractions on the road to success. And some were caught and punished and others weren't but now that's generally forgotten.

Should the Denver infractions (since you are a Broncos fans) be treated in the same way Spygate and this are being applied to the Patriots? Should the Superbowl accomplishments of Elway and Davis be treated as suspect in the same way?


I've said that I think the Patriots will get punished for this and more than a first offense but I don't think they deserve the public hanging some suggest.

 

[DHoey]

A year for Brady and no playoffs for a year

 

[cdumler7]

I understand that but the moral pontification is still too much, particularly by the fans.

It's highly likely that most successful franchises committed similar infractions on the road to success. And some were caught and punished and others weren't but now that's generally forgotten.

Should the Denver infractions (since you are a Broncos fans) be treated in the same way Spygate and this are being applied to the Patriots? Should the Superbowl accomplishments of Elway and Davis be treated as suspect in the same way?


I've said that I think the Patriots will get punished for this and more than a first offense but I don't think they deserve the public hanging some suggest.

Few things on this...If the Broncos did what they did back then today then yes they would be hung just as bad as the Patriots are right now if not worse. It is just part of today's society with the use of technology and also the popularity of the game. Back then you had your die hard fans and then your fans that watch the playoffs and Super Bowl. Today with Fantasy Football, the analysis available 24/7/365, and so much more have just changed everything about the game. So yes those past mistakes have really become nothing as a good chunk of the fans today were not around during that time or were just the casual fan.

The issue for the Patriots is that with being such a great franchise for the past 15 years as the league has grown so much in popularity they have been at the forefront and of course everybody wants to take down the Champs. So every little thing is scrutinized and blown up beyond what it is. Just part of the situation.

So yes this is what will be happening from here on out in the league as long as it stays as popular as it does. Just like when baseball was at its peak and saw the steroid scandal become huge news and slowly take the league down the NFL will view this in that same light of things like this can quickly scare away the average fan that they are trying to make into the diehard fan. So again why the punishment could be pretty servere compared to the actual crime committed. Again I honestly don't think deflating some footballs is that big of a deal. They just did it at the worst possible time.

 

[Carnzo]

So what all of you are saying a weeks worth of detention after school is not enough?

 

[PatsFan2003]

Few things on this...If the Broncos did what they did back then today then yes they would be hung just as bad as the Patriots are right now if not worse. It is just part of today's society with the use of technology and also the popularity of the game. Back then you had your die hard fans and then your fans that watch the playoffs and Super Bowl. Today with Fantasy Football, the analysis available 24/7/365, and so much more have just changed everything about the game. So yes those past mistakes have really become nothing as a good chunk of the fans today were not around during that time or were just the casual fan.

Yes that's my point. So the next question would be on how their legacy as a Superbowl winner should be viewed?

The issue for the Patriots is that with being such a great franchise for the past 15 years as the league has grown so much in popularity they have been at the forefront and of course everybody wants to take down the Champs. So every little thing is scrutinized and blown up beyond what it is. Just part of the situation.

Absolutely

So yes this is what will be happening from here on out in the league as long as it stays as popular as it does. Just like when baseball was at its peak and saw the steroid scandal become huge news and slowly take the league down the NFL will view this in that same light of things like this can quickly scare away the average fan that they are trying to make into the diehard fan. So again why the punishment could be pretty servere compared to the actual crime committed. Again I honestly don't think deflating some footballs is that big of a deal. They just did it at the worst possible time.

Like I said, I would not be surprised if the punishment was severe but what is considered severe?

 

[redseat]

No, not at all. I thought the Saints penalty was over the top, really. But, my point was just that there's been some nightmare-type PR for the league lately, which wasn't around at the time of "Bounty-gate" (as far as I recall), and Roger's gonna want to try to let this one die as quietly as he can. Who knows, of course I could be wrong, I usually am, heh heh.

No he doesn't. If he wanted this to go "quietly" he would have prevented the investigation to begin with