The Golden State Warriors are NOTHING Without.....

[CitySushi]

<furiously strokes semi>

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

 

[msgkings322]

No, it doesn't. Also, I never pretended nor stated I know more about basketball than anyone. Good job inserting some random assumption into the conversation.

So the people who know as much or more about basketball than you all disagree with this take of yours. But you refuse to concede. Do the math.

 

[CitySushi]

@Terry Rode

My last post on this, because it's evident we won't see eye to eye, but...

FWIW, I completely agree with you that having Steve Kerr as a coach is a game changer. I don't think you'll find anyone on here that will disagree with you there.

But the issue I have is you not taking into account how the Warriors were built and what allows them to function. Kerr designed the offense which has maximized efficiency, no doubt. But he's not able to create the offense WITHOUT the type of talent the Warriors had in place. Most noteably four guys, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala. Without them, the Warriors absolutely could not have succeeded because the nature of how they play is cohesive to each player's individual strength.

Curry's a two time MVP, yet has the smallest ego out of any superstar in the League. He created the culture of the Warriors share the ball mentality. Without him doing so, the Warriors do not function.

Klay Thompson shooting is what is most noticed by him, but it's his ability to defend both guard positions and the toughest guard on opposing teams that allows Steph to be Steph on offense. Klay has one of the hardest jobs in the NBA, in being relied upon to score 20 pts a game and try to lock down the toughest guards in the NBA. He guards everyone from Westbrook, to Harden, to Kyrie, etc. When CP3 was on the Clippers, he guarded him too.

Draymond is arguably the second most important player on the team because of what he brings. He's a PF who acts as the teams de-facto point guard and is a perennial DPOY candidate. He allows the Warriors to go small because at 6'7" he can guard 1-5. He's also that alpha dog that gets into the teams face and provides that intensity that Steph and Klay generally lack.

Iguodala's role is the most unsung because he was the first to accept a lesser role on the team, by taking his move to the bench in stride. His defense and play making with the second unit and in the small lineups has allowed the Warriors to thrive going small.

Steve Kerr didn't just invent his offense from scratch and just plug and play guys. He catered the offense and defense to fit the team. That only works when you have the right players. The Warriors are one of the most unique situations in NBA history. BUT that all stems from the players they have in being able to accomplish that.

 

[Yo Tee]

So the people who know as much or more about basketball than you all disagree with this take of yours. But you refuse to concede. Do the math.

There's no way to know who knows more about who about anything on the internet. It's simply not possible. With that said, those people who disagree, are doing just that, disagreeing. There's no way to prove me wrong and no way to prove them right. It's a discussion of differing opinions, you are acting like you've never had a debate before.

 

[msgkings322]

There's no way to know who knows more about who about anything on the internet. It's simply not possible. With that said, those people who disagree, are doing just that, disagreeing. There's no way to prove me wrong and no way to prove them right. It's a discussion of differing opinions, you are acting like you've never had a debate before.

No I'm not really, why are you so sensitive?

 

[tducey]

Kerr's a very good coach but the talent on that Warriors team I could be their coach and they'd win 50 games.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

No I'm not really, why are you so sensitive?

I can't speak for Terry, but I think I'm so sensitive because I've been furiously tugging on this semi for the last hour or so. Fuckin' chaffed. I knew I shoulda brought some lotion to the office.

 

[Yo Tee]

@Terry Rode

My last post on this, because it's evident we won't see eye to eye, but...

FWIW, I completely agree with you that having Steve Kerr as a coach is a game changer. I don't think you'll find anyone on here that will disagree with you there.

But the issue I have is you not taking into account how the Warriors were built and what allows them to function. Kerr designed the offense which has maximized efficiency, no doubt. But he's not able to create the offense WITHOUT the type of talent the Warriors had in place. Most noteably four guys, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala. Without them, the Warriors absolutely could not have succeeded because the nature of how they play is cohesive to each player's individual strength.

Curry's a two time MVP, yet has the smallest ego out of any superstar in the League. He created the culture of the Warriors share the ball mentality. Without him doing so, the Warriors do not function.

Klay Thompson shooting is what is most noticed by him, but it's his ability to defend both guard positions and the toughest guard on opposing teams that allows Steph to be Steph on offense. Klay has one of the hardest jobs in the NBA, in being relied upon to score 20 pts a game and try to lock down the toughest guards in the NBA. He guards everyone from Westbrook, to Harden, to Kyrie, etc. When CP3 was on the Clippers, he guarded him too.

Draymond is arguably the second most important player on the team because of what he brings. He's a PF who acts as the teams de-facto point guard and is a perennial DPOY candidate. He allows the Warriors to go small because at 6'7" he can guard 1-5. He's also that alpha dog that gets into the teams face and provides that intensity that Steph and Klay generally lack.

Iguodala's role is the most unsung because he was the first to accept a lesser role on the team, by taking his move to the bench in stride. His defense and play making with the second unit and in the small lineups has allowed the Warriors to thrive going small.

Steve Kerr didn't just invent his offense from scratch and just plug and play guys. He catered the offense and defense to fit the team. That only works when you have the right players. The Warriors are one of the most unique situations in NBA history. BUT that all stems from the players they have in being able to accomplish that.

First of all, thank you for having a reasonable discussion with me.

I'm gonna go line by line lol

I totally agree that Kerr didn't build the Warriors. But Kerr was able to bring the most out of Curry and Klay and Draymond that, for some reason Jackson wasn't able to do. Now, that's more than likely because Kerr is a better coach than Jackson. That's something, like you said, we can agree on.

Curry is a two-time MVP NOW. He wasn't before Kerr came along. He was already a very good player, but I believe Kerr was able to polish Curry and turn him into the shooter/player he is now. Is it beyond a reasonable thought that Steve Kerr was able to coach and teach and mentor Steph Curry to the point where he elevated his game up to that MVP level? Curry went from 22-24 PPG before Kerr to about 25-30 PPG with Kerr.

Same thing with Klay Thompson. He went from 16-18 PPG before Kerr to 20-23 PPG with Kerr. Is it beyond a reasonable thought that Kerr was able to coach and teach and mentor Klay to the point where he elevated his game up to that caliber?

Draymond wasn't even a starter with Jackson. Kerr comes in, make him the starter and he nearly averages a double-double and he has career highs in PPG, RPG and practically every other category the following year.

Can't argue anything with Iguodala. That's not Kerr, that's just how Iggy plays. Iggy could to go New Orleans and have the same impact, in my opinion.

I agree that Steve Kerr didn't invent the offense, but I believe he perfected the offense using the talent already existing on the team and bringing in pieces like KD and KD was ONLY interested in joining Golden State because of the immediate success of the Warriors the year before. Does KD join the Warriors if they are still a 6th seed in the West losing in the 2nd round? Hell no.

It's not my opinion that Steve Kerr is the greatest coach ever, or that Curry and Klay and KD and Draymond are only good because of Kerr. It's my opinion that Steve Kerr has been able to pull out this level of play out of Curry, Klay and Draymond, which garnered interest from KD in joining the Warriors. Because of this level of play that Kerr has pulled out of these guys, that's the reason for all of their success the last 4 years. If Mark Jackson was still the coach for Golden State in 14-15, I don't believe the Warriors win the NBA title and I don't believe you see Kevin Durant in a Warriors uniform. I feel like he either stays in OKC or he goes over to Cleveland or whoever the West team is that was the representative in the NBA Finals.

 

[Yo Tee]

No I'm not really, why are you so sensitive?

I'm not sensitive, I just hate it when people try to create an argument with assumptions that they made up in their head and not taking what I said or what my opinion/s is/are and create reasonable and constructive dialogue.

 

[WiggyRuss]

The only person that doesn't understand what the Lakers wanna accomplish this year is wiggy. And I hope he doesn't say all season long LeBron's legacy will take a hit if he doesn't return to the Finals.

Oh i understand what they want to do- I just think its stupid.

Any plan with with LeBron in his age 34 season that is not "going for it" is stupid in my opinion.

before the season started 4 years ago the Cavs dealt Wiggins- an absolutely top level blue chip prospect for Kevin Love because Wiggins and LeBron's prime's just did not lineup.

Four years later- the Lakers could have made a deal for Kawhi Leonard supposedly if they dealt Ingram and Kuzma. No matter what happens- even if Ingram and Kuzma get every single ounce of talent out of their potential- LeBron will be into his late thirties before they hit their primes.

To throw away one of the last true prime years of arguably the best player of all time in order to take time to develop youngsters is galactically stupid if you ask me. It borders on gross basketball negligence.

How you can saddle LeBron James with a bunch of kids and a bunch of cast-offs on 1 year contacts is beyond me.

I realize the plan- try and develop the young guys this year- and then go back in free agency next year- I just think its insanely stupid and is a colossal waste. The Lakers could EASILY have either George or Kawhi if they were willing to trade some of their young guys right now and they would be a sprained ankle in a playoff series away from being title contenders.

Instead they have practically no hope of anything more than a 2nd round appearance- IF things work out.

To me that makes no sense.

To not take advantage of LeBron James' prime can be classified as nothing less than simple abject stupidity if you ask me.


and not only that- but then to ignore what has made James' teams succesful in the past- shooting shooting and more shooting with some tough rebounding bigs thrown in for 2nd chance opportunities seems even more insane to me. The Lakers had the playbook

Vets, Shooting, some tough front court players

instead they decided to go with

young guys, ball handlers, and bigs like McGee, Wagner, Beasley, Zubac.

its mind-boggling

 

[tlance]

No, I'm acting as if Steve Kerr took Draymond Green from the bench where he started 12 games the last year without Kerr, started him 79 games where he almost averaged a double-double, was able to coach and teach Steph Curry, who is a shooter like Kerr was back in the day and Klay Thompson magically turned from a 18 ppg player to almost 22 ppg, Klay had a career high in practically every single stat the first year with Steve Kerr as coach.

Yes, Steve Kerr took the already existing decent set of tools, polished them up real nice and made them into the shiny Champs they are now.

No.

Steve Kerr does not get credit for that. Most of it is player evolution. Young Players tend to get better as they earn more experience in the league. In the case of the Warriors, the emergence of Klay and Draymond happened at the same time Curry got over his injury issues.

Yes, they made a leap. Some of it was due to kerr's system. Most of it was due to natural player growth that would have occured under any halfway decent coaching.

 

[Wamu]

Oh i understand what they want to do- I just think its stupid.

Any plan with with LeBron in his age 34 season that is not "going for it" is stupid in my opinion.

before the season started 4 years ago the Cavs dealt Wiggins- an absolutely top level blue chip prospect for Kevin Love because Wiggins and LeBron's prime's just did not lineup.

Four years later- the Lakers could have made a deal for Kawhi Leonard supposedly if they dealt Ingram and Kuzma. No matter what happens- even if Ingram and Kuzma get every single ounce of talent out of their potential- LeBron will be into his late thirties before they hit their primes.

To throw away one of the last true prime years of arguably the best player of all time in order to take time to develop youngsters is galactically stupid if you ask me. It borders on gross basketball negligence.

How you can saddle LeBron James with a bunch of kids and a bunch of cast-offs on 1 year contacts is beyond me.

I realize the plan- try and develop the young guys this year- and then go back in free agency next year- I just think its insanely stupid and is a colossal waste. The Lakers could EASILY have either George or Kawhi if they were willing to trade some of their young guys right now and they would be a sprained ankle in a playoff series away from being title contenders.

Instead they have practically no hope of anything more than a 2nd round appearance- IF things work out.

To me that makes no sense.

To not take advantage of LeBron James' prime can be classified as nothing less than simple abject stupidity if you ask me.


and not only that- but then to ignore what has made James' teams succesful in the past- shooting shooting and more shooting with some tough rebounding bigs thrown in for 2nd chance opportunities seems even more insane to me. The Lakers had the playbook

Vets, Shooting, some tough front court players

instead they decided to go with

young guys, ball handlers, and bigs like McGee, Wagner, Beasley, Zubac.

its mind-boggling

Oh of course you think it's stupid wiggy. It's gonna be hilarious to see you be overly critical of him all year.

The bizarre thing is had he stayed in Cleveland you'd be huggin' on his nuts like you've always done.

 

[Yo Tee]

No.

Steve Kerr does not get credit for that. Most of it is player evolution. Young Players tend to get better as they earn more experience in the league. In the case of the Warriors, the emergence of Klay and Draymond happened at the same time Curry got over his injury issues.

Yes, they made a leap. Some of it was due to kerr's system. Most of it was due to natural player growth that would have occured under any halfway decent coaching.

This creates 3 questions for me.

1. Could that player evolution not be because of the coaching from Steve Kerr?
2. Is it your opinion that it's just a coincidence that the Warriors, out of nowhere, become THIS good once Steve Kerr becomes coach?
3. Are the Golden State Warriors THIS good with Mark Jackson as coach the last 4 years?

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I do think all of the recent success falls on Steve Kerr. However, if you were to take Steph or KD away right now, I do think that the Warriors would not be as good as they are right now. BUT! Steph being as good as he is, Klay being as good as he is and the fact that KD joined the Warriors is, in my opinion, all in part to Steve Kerr's coaching and the quick success he brought to the team.

KD and LeBron in LA are unstoppable. Arguably the best 2 players in the league right now on the same team? Holy shit dude, can you imagine?

Okay...we're going to agree to disagree on basically one word..."all".

The only team I can remember that ever won an NBA title and they didn't have elite talent...maybe Walton's '77 Blazer team...they had no business beating the 76ers that season. If GS had won it only once with this cast, I think we could make a stronger case for Kerr being the main cog, but 3? You've gotta have the horses and they do.

KD went to GS because he wanted away from Westbrook and he wanted to win a ring...so their success absolutely was a factor, but when you say "quick success"...you have to remember, he took over a 50 win team...he didn't pick this squad up off the scrap heap and turned them into world champions....I would go as far as saying maybe 4 or 5 other coaches could've done something similar....again because they have the players.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

To throw away one of the last true prime years of arguably the best player of all time in order to take time to develop youngsters is galactically stupid if you ask me.

Why do you assume that's what they're doing. What if they're going to get more big names and build a super team? I'd think that's what they're doing as opposed to waiting for those young guys to develop.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Also, how many tickets and merch are the Lakers going to sell because they added Lee Brown James?

That alone would likely eliminate a "galactically stupid" rating to the move.

 

[Wamu]

Why do you assume that's what they're doing. What if they're going to get more big names and build a super team? I'd think that's what they're doing as opposed to waiting for those young guys to develop.

When it comes to the topic of LeHollywood wiggy's very biased. And he probably won't acknowledge the fact that the Lakers have alotta loot & the roster will look much different next year.

Instead of looking @ the big picture he's only focusing on this season.

 

[Yo Tee]

but when you say "quick success"...you have to remember, he took over a 50 win team...he didn't pick this squad up off the scrap heap and turned them into world champions

I totally get that. But that 50 win team couldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs. How many teams can say they went from losing in the first round, to winning 3 out of the last 4 NBA titles? I haven't done the research, but I'd say that number is less than 3.

 

[CitySushi]

First of all, thank you for having a reasonable discussion with me.

I'm gonna go line by line lol

I totally agree that Kerr didn't build the Warriors. But Kerr was able to bring the most out of Curry and Klay and Draymond that, for some reason Jackson wasn't able to do. Now, that's more than likely because Kerr is a better coach than Jackson. That's something, like you said, we can agree on.

Curry is a two-time MVP NOW. He wasn't before Kerr came along. He was already a very good player, but I believe Kerr was able to polish Curry and turn him into the shooter/player he is now. Is it beyond a reasonable thought that Steve Kerr was able to coach and teach and mentor Steph Curry to the point where he elevated his game up to that MVP level? Curry went from 22-24 PPG before Kerr to about 25-30 PPG with Kerr.

Same thing with Klay Thompson. He went from 16-18 PPG before Kerr to 20-23 PPG with Kerr. Is it beyond a reasonable thought that Kerr was able to coach and teach and mentor Klay to the point where he elevated his game up to that caliber?

Draymond wasn't even a starter with Jackson. Kerr comes in, make him the starter and he nearly averages a double-double and he has career highs in PPG, RPG and practically every other category the following year.

Can't argue anything with Iguodala. That's not Kerr, that's just how Iggy plays. Iggy could to go New Orleans and have the same impact, in my opinion.

I agree that Steve Kerr didn't invent the offense, but I believe he perfected the offense using the talent already existing on the team and bringing in pieces like KD and KD was ONLY interested in joining Golden State because of the immediate success of the Warriors the year before. Does KD join the Warriors if they are still a 6th seed in the West losing in the 2nd round? Hell no.

It's not my opinion that Steve Kerr is the greatest coach ever, or that Curry and Klay and KD and Draymond are only good because of Kerr. It's my opinion that Steve Kerr has been able to pull out this level of play out of Curry, Klay and Draymond, which garnered interest from KD in joining the Warriors. Because of this level of play that Kerr has pulled out of these guys, that's the reason for all of their success the last 4 years. If Mark Jackson was still the coach for Golden State in 14-15, I don't believe the Warriors win the NBA title and I don't believe you see Kevin Durant in a Warriors uniform. I feel like he either stays in OKC or he goes over to Cleveland or whoever the West team is that was the representative in the NBA Finals.

The thing you're not factoring in about Steph and Klay is that both were already on an upward trajectory. They improved every year and every year their numbers got even better. It's not a stretch to say that both would still be improving going into their primes, with or without Kerr. Kerr definitely gave them the right push, but to say both are products of Steve Kerr is short sighted at best.

With respects to Draymond, Kerr didn't even really intend for Draymond to have a role on the team. He became the starter when David Lee got injured to start the year and was forced to start Draymond. Draymond was able to solidify his spot and played so well that Kerr HAD to keep him in there. Additionally Kerr never intended to go small at all. It was all a product of Draymond and the revelation of what he could be as a player when he was able to start. Draymond is as much a product of luck as he is anything else. It's entirely possible that Draymond's potential would have been untapped for years if David Lee did not get injured. Lee was to be a big part of Steve Kerr's offense, but instead the team became a defensive juggernaut because of Draymond. Go back and look at Draymond's comments at their NBA championship parade. He called out Steve Kerr for saying that Kerr didn't even like him. That was absolutely true. Kerr didn't like Draymond and told him to begin the year he didn't know how he was going to fit him on the team and didn't know if he could even guarantee him minutes.

I absolutely agree Mark Jackson was not taking the Warriors to the championship. Coaching 100% matters in the NBA. But when you reference Jordan, you're finessing facts to support your own conclusion instead of viewing them for what they are. Jordan is the best player in NBA history, so comparisons to him are really outlandish in every aspect. So you saying he accomplished a lot, while having losing records his first 3 seasons in the NBA just seems argumentative. Because in actuality he didn't accomplish anything. He had a losing record his first 3 years in the NBA, but made the playoffs because teams with bad records could make it back then. But you herald his accomplishments, but diminish Curry's by saying him winning 1 playoff series doesn't count (when Jordan did the exact same).

I get your stance, I understand your perspective, I just completely disagree. And this is coming from a Warriors fan who has seen the dynamics of the team and how things have taken shape. Just go back and actually look at Curry's development his last year under Mark Jackson. He was phenomenal and people saw that he could develop into a top tier NBA player, if he wasn't considered one already.