The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[trojanfan12]

He definitely sacrificed his game a lot.

But I remember looking back at his Toronto stats the first time I delved into this subject and being surprised. They were very good, but not elite. Certainly not what I perceived them to be when he originally joined with Wade and LeBron.

Bosh was a perennial all star, but he never made an all-NBA team. I just don’t see how he would have made them jump to superstardom playing a dying position without challenging for scoring titles.

He was very good, but I just don’t see him ever elevating to superstar status.

He improved every season in Toronto and just when he hit his prime, he joined Lebron and D-Wade.

He had averaged 24 points, 10 rebounds and 2.4 assists his final season in Toronto. His numbers dropped significantly beginning the first year in Miami.

I don't know if he would have reached full superstar status.

But considering he was just entering his prime, coming off his best season and was improving, I bet he'd have at least come close.

 

[trojanfan12]

Thought I heard Love talked to Bosh when Love got here to find out what playing with Lebron would be like. was right he'd need to sacrifice....but he would help him win.

Yeah, you put 3 players of that caliber together, 2 guys will have to sacrifice a little and 1 guy will have to sacrifice a lot.

It was always going to be Bosh that had to make the biggest sacrifice in Miami and Love in Cleveland.

Which, imo, makes Kyrie even more crazy when you consider why he left and what Bosh and Love each sacrificed.

 

[tlance]

He improved every season in Toronto and just when he hit his prime, he joined Lebron and D-Wade.

He had averaged 24 points, 10 rebounds and 2.4 assists his final season in Toronto. His numbers dropped significantly beginning the first year in Miami.

I don't know if he would have reached full superstar status.

But considering he was just entering his prime, coming off his best season and was improving, I bet he'd have at least come close.

Not saying it was impossible, but pretty unlikely.

I was also surprised he never made even 3rd team all NBA in Toronto.

He still had a long ways to go.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not saying it was impossible, but pretty unlikely.

I was also surprised he never made even 3rd team all NBA in Toronto.

He still had a long ways to go.

To be fair, who wins anything individual awards in Toronto...especially back then? lol

 

[tlance]

To be fair, who wins anything individual awards in Toronto...especially back then? lol

The forwards who won those honors in 2010 were:

LeBron and KD- the actual superstars

Melo, Dirk and Duncan- former superstars (at least Dirk and Duncan)

And then Pau Gasol.

He just has an uphill battle just to get to 2nd team.

 

[trojanfan12]

The forwards who won those honors in 2010 were:

LeBron and KD- the actual superstars

Melo, Dirk and Duncan- former superstars (at least Dirk and Duncan)

And then Pau Gasol.

He just has an uphill battle just to get to 2nd team.

.

Yeah, that position was pretty stacked. lol

Like I said, I think he could have gotten there or pretty close if he continued to improve. But you have a stricter definition of superstar than I do.

I think we both agree that he had work to do though.

I don't remember who the top centers were at the time (and am too lazy to look them up), but had he stayed a center (which he played in Toronto) he may have had a better chance at making an all NBA team.

 

[dtgold88]

And I admitted that they fit better. But still not the ideal fit some want to make it.

Kyrie is much better catch and shoot today than he was when LeBron arrived.

And the Heat had better players. All their main pieces could play on both ends. The only reason they didn’t completely dominate IMO was That their best lineups didn’t have quite enough shooting.

I get it...when all else fails make it about the defense which is harder to prove/quantify accurately. How about some of Cavs best lineups were filled with shooters.

Curious other than Wade and Bosh who could play at both ends? and you seem to want to pooh pooh they cannot shoot like Kyrie and Love.

who do you think Miami's top 3 role players were?

 

[dtgold88]

I am not sure how this is relevant.

The main knock on LeBron when talking down the 8 straight Finals appearances is that the Eastern Conference was weak. They usually had 1 very good team (LeBron’s team) and nothing else on the level of the top teams for the West.

2017 and 2018 were the 2 years with hands down the weakest competition of the decade. There just weren’t any high level teams in the East those years beyond 2017 Cleveland.

So winning 12/13 leading up to the Finals doesn’t impress me a whole lot. If they really were one of the best of the millennium, as you claim, they would have won far more than 51 games in such a mediocre conference.

It's relevant because of your usual extreme "hands down" comment. The teams they beat in Miami were nothing special.

Now let's move on to your last comment as it's a headsrcatcher you don't get this. Are you really not aware the Cavs learned the regular season just didn't matter? Before Lebron left they won 66 and 61 games and they were excellent defenders, which you should love. I hope you don't think those teams were better than his best teams in his second go around because they won more regular season games and played better D.

 

[dtgold88]

.

Yeah, that position was pretty stacked. lol

Like I said, I think he could have gotten there or pretty close if he continued to improve. But you have a stricter definition of superstar than I do.

I think we both agree that he had work to do though.

I don't remember who the top centers were at the time (and am too lazy to look them up), but had he stayed a center (which he played in Toronto) he may have had a better chance at making an all NBA team.

I have to say there was once a time I thought Bosh's numbers in Toronto closely resembled Love in Minny when it came to scoring/rebounding. Scoring was close, but surprised Bosh was never a 12-15 rebound guy like I thought I remembered.

 

[tlance]

It's relevant because of your usual extreme "hands down" comment. The teams they beat in Miami were nothing special.

Now let's move on to your last comment as it's a headsrcatcher you don't get this. Are you really not aware the Cavs learned the regular season just didn't matter? Before Lebron left they won 66 and 61 games and they were excellent defenders, which you should love. I hope you don't think those teams were better than his best teams in his second go around because they won more regular season games and played better D.

You want to rank the Cavs among the best of the millennium when there is literally nothing to support that. They beat nobody of consequence in the East playoffs and they didn’t put up much of a fight against the Warriors. They didn’t win a lot of games in the regular season. There is literally nothing solid to support your case.

I am not claiming the Heat were some all time great team. But yes, I do think the beat Miami teams were better than the best Cav teams. And at least part of that is that Miami LeBron was better than second stint Cleveland LeBron.

And no, I don’t think the 2009 or 2010 Cavs were as good as 2017.

 

[tlance]

It's relevant because of your usual extreme "hands down" comment. The teams they beat in Miami were nothing special.

Now let's move on to your last comment as it's a headsrcatcher you don't get this. Are you really not aware the Cavs learned the regular season just didn't matter? Before Lebron left they won 66 and 61 games and they were excellent defenders, which you should love. I hope you don't think those teams were better than his best teams in his second go around because they won more regular season games and played better D.

And yeah. Hands down.

the best team they faced didn’t have their best player. The Bulls, Pacers, KG Celtics, take your pick. All far better than the IT less 2017 Celtics.

FAR better.

 

[dtgold88]

You want to rank the Cavs among the best of the millennium when there is literally nothing to support that. They beat nobody of consequence in the East playoffs and they didn’t put up much of a fight against the Warriors. They didn’t win a lot of games in the regular season. There is literally nothing solid to support your case.

I am not claiming the Heat were some all time great team. But yes, I do think the beat Miami teams were better than the best Cav teams. And at least part of that is that Miami LeBron was better than second stint Cleveland LeBron.

And no, I don’t think the 2009 or 2010 Cavs were as good as 2017.

2009 and 2010 not as good as 2017 Cavs? But they won 15 and 10 more games and played better defense. Seems by your other comments the 2009 and 2010 teams should qualify for an extreme "far better" nod.

 

[tlance]

I get it...when all else fails make it about the defense which is harder to prove/quantify accurately. How about some of Cavs best lineups were filled with shooters.

Curious other than Wade and Bosh who could play at both ends? and you seem to want to pooh pooh they cannot shoot like Kyrie and Love.

who do you think Miami's top 3 role players were?

Serious?

Battier was awesome. Chalmers and Haslem were very solid defenders too. And when they added Birdman he played a good role for them too.

And while Ray Allen wasn’t a stopper at his age, he wasn’t Kyle Korver either .

 

[tlance]

2009 and 2010 not as good as 2017 Cavs? But they won 15 and 10 more games and played better defense. Seems by your other comments the 2009 and 2010 teams should qualify for an extreme "far better" nod.

No man.

because unlike you I am capable of analyzing situations.

That team was built to collapse in the playoffs because they had nobody to take pressure of LeBron.

You are the one with the extreme comment here buddy.

Trying to rank the 2017 Cavs who accomplished little and beat nobody of consequence among Spurs, Celtics and Laker teams that won titles.

LMAO.

 

[dtgold88]

Serious?

Battier was awesome. Chalmers and Haslem were very solid defenders too. And when they added Birdman he played a good role for them too.

And while Ray Allen wasn’t a stopper at his age, he wasn’t Kyle Korver either .

Yes, I am serious. Battier was good in his prime. awesome? Seems like a stretch. Never mind he was not in his prime for Miami when he arrived at age 33.

Chalmers and Haslem are at best dime a dozen players. Birdman played a role but probably needed to be better to be dime a dozen. are you just messing with me?

Agree Allen was a better defender than Korver, but at age 38 they had him to be a shooter and to spread the floor.....and Korver was the better shooter. Not really debatable.

and clear you'll ignore defense when it suits you since you are aware the more recent Cavs teams with lebron were better than the 66 and 61 win teams.

I wish you would make up your rules and stick to them.

Haslem, Birdman, Chalmers? Hahahahahaha

 

[dtgold88]

No man.

because unlike you I am capable of analyzing situations.

That team was built to collapse in the playoffs because they had nobody to take pressure of LeBron.

You are the one with the extreme comment here buddy.

Trying to rank the 2017 Cavs who accomplished little and beat nobody of consequence among Spurs, Celtics and Laker teams that won titles.

LMAO.

Nopnotch deflection from pointing out you are just kicking your own ass.

wins matter....wait, no they don't. all about defense. wait, no it's not.

Wade and Bosh much better to be around Lebron. wait, no, you need shooters around Lebron and I admitted Kyrie and Love are better fits.

Surprised you forgot to add Mike Miller to all those great role players for Miami.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Wamu]

What's going on? Anyone arguing? If not what can I say to get some shit started?

You're all wrong for starters. Doesn't matter what the topic is.

 

[dtgold88]

What's going on? Anyone arguing? If not what can I say to get some shit started?

You're all wrong for starters. Doesn't matter what the topic is.

I guess for this purpose instead of saying AD should have replaced Green in the thread that mentioned the top team of certain decades I could have suggested Kevin Love?

 

[Wamu]

I guess for this purpose instead of saying AD should have replaced Green in the thread that mentioned the top team of certain decades I could have suggested Kevin Love?

Sure why the hell not?

 

[dtgold88]

Sure why the hell not?

already gave my opinion of AD. Maybe you could say after some soul searching you think Love is all that and he should be the PF of the 00s?

That could give us a week of comments which we need with no sports. Take one for the team.