The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[tlance]

Narrative never changed for me. My argument has always been the 2017 Cavs' team was better than his best Miami team IMO. And IMO better than most teams this millenium other than GS and LA.

Being a super team is more than #2 vs. #2 to me. Or at least comparing them (if 1 is the same). You disagree? Cool.

Just read this a little closer.

2017 Cavs one of the best teams of the millennium?

LOL.

Sure, they won 12/13 in the East playoffs before the gentlemen’s sweep by the Warriors.

BUT

They swept a mediocre Pacers team, a Raptors team that was scared to death of them AND they played a Celtics team with a severely hobbled IT.

So basically they didn’t beat anybody good. And they only won 51 games and tied for second in the Eastern Conference.

It is opinions like these why I call you a homer.

Utterly ridiculous to call the 2017 Cavs “one of the best teams of the millennium”.

 

[dtgold88]

Well fine.

You can think that if you want. I will grant you that Cleveland’s pieces fit together better. But talent wise Miami had more and they were better, IMO.

Because they were really good on both ends of the court.

2016 Cavs were a top 10 defense and pretty good offensively. But I would not call them the Cavs best team. 2017 Cavs turned up the D in the playoffs. Bigtime. struggled on D against GS but who didn't? Cavs also were able to score on a top ranked GS defense.

 

[tlance]

2016 Cavs were a top 10 defense and pretty good offensively. But I would not call them the Cavs best team. 2017 Cavs turned up the D in the playoffs. Bigtime. struggled on D against GS but who didn't? Cavs also were able to score on a top ranked GS defense.

They played 3 mediocre teams before the Warriors. Certainly no shame in losing there. But still.

Maybe the easiest path to the Finals of the millennium.

If they truly were “one of the best” as you say, they did little to prove it.

 

[msgkings322]

Well fine.

You can think that if you want. I will grant you that Cleveland’s pieces fit together better. But talent wise Miami had more and they were better, IMO.

Because they were really good on both ends of the court.

This is what it comes down to for me. Cleveland had great offense and ok to bad defense depending on which of the Finals teams you pick. Miami had almost as great offense and very good defense. The delta on D was wider than on O, and for the regular season that wouldn't matter much but in the playoffs it does.

 

[lebron23james]

I have said multiple times that Wade and Lebron didn’t fit together very well.

And that is not how the argument started. It started with the debate of whether or not Cleveland was a super team. And I said they weren’t because they didn’t have a second superstar.

Miami did have 2 superstars when LeBron went there.

You are changing narratives here. I don’t care what you were arguing with someone else. I was always talking about why Miami was a super team and Cleveland not. And that all boils down to Wade vs Kyrie.

And yet had the Cavs not had injuries they would have likely won 2/4 championships same as the heat and they did make 4 finals also the same in a 4 year stretch

Bosh is a pretty weak superstar, and Wade was very diminshed by the time the heat rolled to their 2nd finals. He wasn't putting up 30+ in the finals like Kyrie that is for sure. They also suffered from no rebounding, well the Cavs had that down. Would you rather have Bosh/Or Love/Tristan combo?

The key difference is the Heat benefited from playing Dallas, a young OKC and an old Spurs. I would take my chances on those teams over 4 years of GS and 2 with Durant on it any day of the week. None of those teams ranked even remotely close to GS on offensive or defensive ratings. So easier competition during those 4 years.

Cavs were a superteam, they just ran into an even better superteam. Outside of GS, Cavs likely would have ran off 4 straight titles. Teams in the West were having trouble even winning 1 game against GS in the playoffs.

As for 2017 Cavs without Kyrie they were def not better lol

 

[dtgold88]

They played 3 mediocre teams before the Warriors. Certainly no shame in losing there. But still.

Maybe the easiest path to the Finals of the millennium.

If they truly were “one of the best” as you say, they did little to prove it.

Boston and Toronto were mediocre, huh sport? I mean, certainly not world beaters but they were solid.

That GS team was pretty good if you hadn't heard. already said they were the best and better than the cavs or maybe anyone.

 

[dtgold88]

This is what it comes down to for me. Cleveland had great offense and ok to bad defense depending on which of the Finals teams you pick. Miami had almost as great offense and very good defense. The delta on D was wider than on O, and for the regular season that wouldn't matter much but in the playoffs it does.

True, but the Cavs were often able to turn up the D in the playoffs. They never really cared about the reg. season.

 

[msgkings322]

True, but the Cavs were often able to turn up the D in the playoffs. They never really cared about the reg. season.

Still, the Heat D was better in the playoffs.

 

[msgkings322]

True, but the Cavs were often able to turn up the D in the playoffs. They never really cared about the reg. season.

Still, the Heat D was better in the playoffs.

 

[tlance]

And yet had the Cavs not had injuries they would have likely won 2/4 championships same as the heat and they did make 4 finals also the same in a 4 year stretch

Bosh is a pretty weak superstar, and Wade was very diminshed by the time the heat rolled to their 2nd finals. He wasn't putting up 30+ in the finals like Kyrie that is for sure. They also suffered from no rebounding, well the Cavs had that down. Would you rather have Bosh/Or Love/Tristan combo?

The key difference is the Heat benefited from playing Dallas, a young OKC and an old Spurs. I would take my chances on those teams over 4 years of GS and 2 with Durant on it any day of the week. None of those teams ranked even remotely close to GS on offensive or defensive ratings. So easier competition during those 4 years.

Cavs were a superteam, they just ran into an even better superteam. Outside of GS, Cavs likely would have ran off 4 straight titles. Teams in the West were having trouble even winning 1 game against GS in the playoffs.

As for 2017 Cavs without Kyrie they were def not better lol

When did I ever call Bosh a superstar?

Reality is, he was on about the same level as Kyrie.

Wade was a superstar their first 2 years together. And I agree that he wasn’t anymore by 2013 or so.

And you should count your lucky stars. Because if Wade was still at the peak of his game, I don’t think LeBron leaves in 2014.

And no, for the 9 millionth time, they wouldn’t have “likely” won 2 championships.

 

[tlance]

Boston and Toronto were mediocre, huh sport? I mean, certainly not world beaters but they were solid.

That GS team was pretty good if you hadn't heard. already said they were the best and better than the cavs or maybe anyone.

Toronto won 51 games and always choked against Cleveland.

And Yes. Boston was an extremely weak Conference Finals opponent.

Remember, their best player hobbled through the first couple games before tapping out. Even with IT they weren’t very strong when compared to average teams that get to the Conference Finals.

Without IT?

I challenge you to find a weaker team to make the conference Finals in the last 15 years.

You can go back even further than that if you want.

Ironically, the closest you may get is BOTH East Finals opponents in 2018.

 

[lebron23james]

Toronto won 51 games and always choked against Cleveland.

And Yes. Boston was an extremely weak Conference Finals opponent.

Remember, their best player hobbled through the first couple games before tapping out. Even with IT they weren’t very strong when compared to average teams that get to the Conference Finals.

Without IT?

I challenge you to find a weaker team to make the conference Finals in the last 15 years.

You can go back even further than that if you want.

Ironically, the closest you may get is BOTH East Finals opponents in 2018.

Toronto is the reigning NBA champions

 

[lebron23james]

When did I ever call Bosh a superstar?

Reality is, he was on about the same level as Kyrie.

Wade was a superstar their first 2 years together. And I agree that he wasn’t anymore by 2013 or so.

And you should count your lucky stars. Because if Wade was still at the peak of his game, I don’t think LeBron leaves in 2014.

And no, for the 9 millionth time, they wouldn’t have “likely” won 2 championships.

Im just curious. If Curry/Thompson/Green couldn't win in 2016 with championship experience and home court and a bunch of tail winds going in, less pressure, etc...what makes you think they would have won in 2015? They damn near lost and the series went 6 in 2015 with Lebron and absolutely nobody else on the team...I think it's safe to assume that series goes 7 or in the Cavs favor had Kyrie and Love played. It's like saying If Lebron lost Wade and Bosh it's safe to asusme they would be better if they were added back....This isn't groundbreaking stuff here lol

 

[tlance]

Im just curious. If Curry/Thompson/Green couldn't win in 2016 with championship experience and home court and a bunch of tail winds going in, less pressure, etc...what makes you think they would have won in 2015? They damn near lost and the series went 6 in 2015 with Lebron and absolutely nobody else on the team...I think it's safe to assume that series goes 7 or in the Cavs favor had Kyrie and Love played. It's like saying If Lebron lost Wade and Bosh it's safe to asusme they would be better if they were added back....This isn't groundbreaking stuff here lol

Are you high?

how many times have we had this conversation?

 

[Wamu]

Are you high?

Yes. And I have cottonmouth again.

 

[tlance]

Toronto is the reigning NBA champions

LOL.

yeah, they had basically the same roster in 2019 right?

Or did they trade for arguably the best player in the entire league, experienced vets like Gasol and had Siakam begin growing into a legit star. Siakam played a total of 10 minutes over 2 games in 2017.

But sure. Let’s pretend like they were championship caliber in 2017 because it makes Cleveland look better.

 

[bksballer89]

lol people really trying to make toronto seem a worthy playoffs opponent prior to last year?

There is a reason why they were known as the baby dinosaurs before acquiring kawhi

 

[tlance]

lol people really trying to make toronto seem a worthy playoffs opponent prior to last year?

There is a reason why they were known as the baby dinosaurs before acquiring kawhi

No. Not people. Just @lebron23james

Don’t think that counts.

 

[Shanemansj13]

And yet had the Cavs not had injuries they would have likely won 2/4 championships same as the heat and they did make 4 finals also the same in a 4 year stretch

Bosh is a pretty weak superstar, and Wade was very diminshed by the time the heat rolled to their 2nd finals. He wasn't putting up 30+ in the finals like Kyrie that is for sure. They also suffered from no rebounding, well the Cavs had that down. Would you rather have Bosh/Or Love/Tristan combo?

The key difference is the Heat benefited from playing Dallas, a young OKC and an old Spurs. I would take my chances on those teams over 4 years of GS and 2 with Durant on it any day of the week. None of those teams ranked even remotely close to GS on offensive or defensive ratings. So easier competition during those 4 years.

Cavs were a superteam, they just ran into an even better superteam. Outside of GS, Cavs likely would have ran off 4 straight titles. Teams in the West were having trouble even winning 1 game against GS in the playoffs.

As for 2017 Cavs without Kyrie they were def not better lol

Bosh was never a superstar. Pretty damn good 3rd option though, same for Love.

I still don't consider the Cavs a superteam, which makes their accomplishment even greater, which is great.

 

[Shanemansj13]

lol people really trying to make toronto seem a worthy playoffs opponent prior to last year?

There is a reason why they were known as the baby dinosaurs before acquiring kawhi

And I wouldn't say they were GREAT with Kawhi, if Klay and KD or if it's the same team the Cavs met two straight years, that series would go 5 at best. Either way, Green/Gasol/Kawhi and Siakam emerging is much better than they had with Derozan.