The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[trojanfan12]

Bosh was never a superstar. Pretty damn good 3rd option though, same for Love.

I still don't consider the Cavs a superteam, which makes their accomplishment even greater, which is great.

Bosh is interesting. I think a case could be made that he sacrificed becoming a superstar to win titles.

He was pretty damn good in Toronto, but no one other than basketball junkies really knew who he was because he was in Toronto. I wanted the Lakers to get him in the worst way.

Had he gone to team that folks pay attention to as the #1 or #2 option, he may be looked at as a superstar now. But he also likely doesn't have those 2 rings either.

 

[trojanfan12]

And I wouldn't say they were GREAT with Kawhi, if Klay and KD or if it's the same team the Cavs met two straight years, that series would go 5 at best. Either way, Green/Gasol/Kawhi and Siakam emerging is much better than they had with Derozan.

Yeah, can't take anything a way from them. But it was a perfect storm of circumstances that led to that title.

 

[Black Adam]

No. Not people. Just @lebron23james

Don’t think that counts.

wait, he was arguing that the cRaptors in 2017 were championship calibre...???

 

[Shanemansj13]

Bosh is interesting. I think a case could be made that he sacrificed becoming a superstar to win titles.

He was pretty damn good in Toronto, but no one other than basketball junkies really knew who he was because he was in Toronto. I wanted the Lakers to get him in the worst way.

Had he gone to team that folks pay attention to as the #1 or #2 option, he may be looked at as a superstar now. But he also likely doesn't have those 2 rings either.

I don't believe he could have become a superstar but who really knows. He was a #1 on Toronto for years and could have been a #2 on a great team but with the teams of that decade it would have been hard to win. The Spurs had future HOFr's as their 2nd, 3rd and 4th options...kinda crazy.

 

[tlance]

Bosh is interesting. I think a case could be made that he sacrificed becoming a superstar to win titles.

He was pretty damn good in Toronto, but no one other than basketball junkies really knew who he was because he was in Toronto. I wanted the Lakers to get him in the worst way.

Had he gone to team that folks pay attention to as the #1 or #2 option, he may be looked at as a superstar now. But he also likely doesn't have those 2 rings either.

He definitely sacrificed his game a lot.

But I remember looking back at his Toronto stats the first time I delved into this subject and being surprised. They were very good, but not elite. Certainly not what I perceived them to be when he originally joined with Wade and LeBron.

Bosh was a perennial all star, but he never made an all-NBA team. I just don’t see how he would have made them jump to superstardom playing a dying position without challenging for scoring titles.

He was very good, but I just don’t see him ever elevating to superstar status.

 

[tlance]

I don't believe he could have become a superstar but who really knows. He was a #1 on Toronto for years and could have been a #2 on a great team but with the teams of that decade it would have been hard to win. The Spurs had future HOFr's as their 2nd, 3rd and 4th options...kinda crazy.

So did the Heat.

if you count a well past prime Ray Allen.

Then again, the Spurs big 3 were all on the downside when those teams played too.

 

[Shanemansj13]

He definitely sacrificed his game a lot.

But I remember looking back at his Toronto stats the first time I delved into this subject and being surprised. They were very good, but not elite. Certainly not what I perceived them to be when he originally joined with Wade and LeBron.

Bosh was a perennial all star, but he never made an all-NBA team. I just don’t see how he would have made them jump to superstardom playing a dying position without challenging for scoring titles.

He was very good, but I just don’t see him ever elevating to superstar status.

Yeah a very high level of all-star but not a star or superstar. I kinda think of him as a Lamarcus Aldridge. He was a #1 on Portland but just never a star or superstar even with some great seasons under his belt. But I do like Bosh more than Aldridge.

 

[Shanemansj13]

So did the Heat.

if you count a well past prime Ray Allen.

Then again, the Spurs big 3 were all on the downside when those teams played too.

The only player in his true prime was Lebron but he is technically still in his prime hahaha. Imagine, Lebron on a team with Wade, Bosh and Allen 3 years earlier...like the Lakers and Celtics had all their HOFrs in their prime, same with Shaq and Kobe.

 

[tlance]

Yeah a very high level of all-star but not a star or superstar. I kinda think of him as a Lamarcus Aldridge. He was a #1 on Portland but just never a star or superstar even with some great seasons under his belt. But I do like Bosh more than Aldridge.

Yeah that is a good comp.

KAT isn’t even considered a superstar and he posts like 25-12. He has time to get there, but I kind of doubt it the way bigs are being devalued.

Bosh was probably somewhere in between Aldridge and KAT in terms of production.

 

[tlance]

The only player in his true prime was Lebron but he is technically still in his prime hahaha. Imagine, Lebron on a team with Wade, Bosh and Allen 3 years earlier...like the Lakers and Celtics had all their HOFrs in their prime, same with Shaq and Kobe.

That was why the Heat formation was so crazy.

Wade faded quickly, but when they came together they were all squarely in their primes. That had never been done before.

 

[Shanemansj13]

That was why the Heat formation was so crazy.

Wade faded quickly, but when they came together they were all squarely in their primes. That had never been done before.

Yep and Lebron & Wade weren't even a great fit...that says even more about how great these two actually are. Off the charts basketball IQ's and really Wade completely changed how he played the game at times and took a backseat. That had to be very difficult for the way he played the game up until that point.

 

[tlance]

Yep and Lebron & Wade weren't even a great fit...that says even more about how great these two actually are. Off the charts basketball IQ's and really Wade completely changed how he played the game at times and took a backseat. That had to be very difficult for the way he played the game up until that point.

If either one of them had a better off ball skill set, they would have titles all 4 years they were together. It was so challenging because they basically needed to take turns. Then when Wade was no longer an elite player, it got even harder.

 

[dtgold88]

Still, the Heat D was better in the playoffs.

Probably, but closer than some seem to think (other than maybe 2018). Cavs O was pretty damn good, too..especially 2017 if memory serves.

 

[msgkings322]

Probably, but closer than some seem to think (other than maybe 2018). Cavs O was pretty damn good, too..especially 2017 if memory serves.

Yes I know because I said that many times already.

 

[dtgold88]

Toronto won 51 games and always choked against Cleveland.

And Yes. Boston was an extremely weak Conference Finals opponent.

Remember, their best player hobbled through the first couple games before tapping out. Even with IT they weren’t very strong when compared to average teams that get to the Conference Finals.

Without IT?

I challenge you to find a weaker team to make the conference Finals in the last 15 years.

You can go back even further than that if you want.

Ironically, the closest you may get is BOTH East Finals opponents in 2018.

and only Indiana in 2013-14 and NY in 2012-13 won 50+ in the East (56 and 54). I thought Indiana was good but NY no better than the teams the Cavs beat. The Big 3 Cs win was impressive.

 

[dtgold88]

Bosh was never a superstar. Pretty damn good 3rd option though, same for Love.

I still don't consider the Cavs a superteam, which makes their accomplishment even greater, which is great.

I could see that....unless you think Miami was a superteam.

 

[dtgold88]

If either one of them had a better off ball skill set, they would have titles all 4 years they were together. It was so challenging because they basically needed to take turns. Then when Wade was no longer an elite player, it got even harder.

agreed....but while maybe not suited to be an off ball guy, Kyrie could spread the floor for Lebron as could Love (as well as probably any big man he could have been paired with).

 

[dtgold88]

Bosh is interesting. I think a case could be made that he sacrificed becoming a superstar to win titles.

He was pretty damn good in Toronto, but no one other than basketball junkies really knew who he was because he was in Toronto. I wanted the Lakers to get him in the worst way.

Had he gone to team that folks pay attention to as the #1 or #2 option, he may be looked at as a superstar now. But he also likely doesn't have those 2 rings either.

Thought I heard Love talked to Bosh when Love got here to find out what playing with Lebron would be like. was right he'd need to sacrifice....but he would help him win.

 

[tlance]

agreed....but while maybe not suited to be an off ball guy, Kyrie could spread the floor for Lebron as could Love (as well as probably any big man he could have been paired with).

And I admitted that they fit better. But still not the ideal fit some want to make it.

Kyrie is much better catch and shoot today than he was when LeBron arrived.

And the Heat had better players. All their main pieces could play on both ends. The only reason they didn’t completely dominate IMO was That their best lineups didn’t have quite enough shooting.

 

[tlance]

and only Indiana in 2013-14 and NY in 2012-13 won 50+ in the East (56 and 54). I thought Indiana was good but NY no better than the teams the Cavs beat. The Big 3 Cs win was impressive.

I am not sure how this is relevant.

The main knock on LeBron when talking down the 8 straight Finals appearances is that the Eastern Conference was weak. They usually had 1 very good team (LeBron’s team) and nothing else on the level of the top teams for the West.

2017 and 2018 were the 2 years with hands down the weakest competition of the decade. There just weren’t any high level teams in the East those years beyond 2017 Cleveland.

So winning 12/13 leading up to the Finals doesn’t impress me a whole lot. If they really were one of the best of the millennium, as you claim, they would have won far more than 51 games in such a mediocre conference.