The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[Wamu]

already gave my opinion of AD. Maybe you could say after some soul searching you think Love is all that and he should be the PF of the 00s?

That could give us a week of comments which we need with no sports. Take one for the team.

The bestest PF of the 00s? Oh hell no. He's the bestest PF ever dammit!

 

[dtgold88]

The bestest PF of the 00s? Oh hell no. He's the bestest PF ever dammit!

what are ya waiting for? That could make it a 20 pager. we need ya, bro. Do your thing.

 

[Wamu]

what are ya waiting for? That could make it a 20 pager? we need ya, bro. do your thing.

You caught me at a bad time. I'm busy doing nothing right now. But I should have some free time in a couple of hours.

 

[tlance]

Yes, I am serious. Battier was good in his prime. awesome? Seems like a stretch. Never mind he was not in his prime for Miami when he arrived at age 33.

Chalmers and Haslem are at best dime a dozen players. Birdman played a role but probably needed to be better to be dime a dozen. are you just messing with me?

Agree Allen was a better defender than Korver, but at age 38 they had him to be a shooter and to spread the floor.....and Korver was the better shooter. Not really debatable.

and clear you'll ignore defense when it suits you since you are aware the more recent Cavs teams with lebron were better than the 66 and 61 win teams.

I wish you would make up your rules and stick to them.

Haslem, Birdman, Chalmers? Hahahahahaha

Those guys are role players. What do you want?

And they can all defend. Yes. Battier was an awesome defender. One of the main reasons the Heat handled OKC in 2012 was because KD had to guard LeBron, while Battier was the primary defender on KD. And KD got in foul trouble 3 of 4 games they lost.

You asked for the Heat role players who could defend. I provided a list of them.

And I got news for you, your Cav role players were not better than this group. They were nothing special.

 

[tlance]

And yes, it is absolutely debatable about who the better shooter is between Allen and Korver. Ray Allen is in the conversation for second best shooter of all time.

Korver has a better 3 point percentage, but Allen better FG% overall and better from the line. And he also attracted a lot more attention from defenses throughout throughout his career because he was the far superior player. So that could explain the 3 point percentage difference.

I don’t actually know who the better shooter is. But it is close.

 

[WiggyRuss]

It’s just a lot harder to evaluate a high school player because of the competition they face and the fact that they are a year younger. You have to project more.

For every Zion there is a Kwame Brown. Which I think is the point OP was trying to make.

But to @bksballer89 point, I tend to agree. Yes Zion made a few extra million by going to Duke for a year, but he would have been a top 6-7 pick (maybe top 3) out of high school too. Some guys ranked that high have their stock take a major hit, like Nassir Little, for example.

But if you are good enough, whether a player comes out of high school or does 1 year or college they still have every opportunity to develop. The risk is on the team. Way more likely the team makes a mistake and picks a bust when drafting a high school player.

And for the guys who get underdrafted out of high school, they make it up and then some on the back end.

a "few extra million"

the few jumps up the draft board PALE in comparison to the opportunity to market yourself and up your profile. If Zion was a rookie that came out played really well - he would still have gotten NOWHERE NEAR the name recognition and profile jump that he got from his year at Duke.

Going up the draft board is obviously a part of it.

but the bigger and far more impactful part is the difference in the endorsement deals that he would have signed as a mostly anonymous rookie compared to the deal that he signed after his profile exploded.

 

[tlance]

a "few extra million"

the few jumps up the draft board PALE in comparison to the opportunity to market yourself and up your profile. If Zion was a rookie that came out played really well - he would still have gotten NOWHERE NEAR the name recognition and profile jump that he got from his year at Duke.

Going up the draft board is obviously a part of it.

but the bigger and far more impactful part is the difference in the endorsement deals that he would have signed as a mostly anonymous rookie compared to the deal that he signed after his profile exploded.

Sure.

but what about the risk?

Michael Porter Jr. might have been the number 1 overall pick had he been allowed to leave after high school. Definitely would have been top 3.

Zion had that injury scare while at Duke and obviously wasn’t ready at the start of the season due to injury.

And that doesn’t even begin to factor in the bust factor. Cam Reddish was ranked ahead of Zion. He didn’t play up to expectations and his stock fell.

For any high schooler likely to be a lottery pick, there is a lot more downside to lose than upside to gain IF and ONLY IF they are a lottery lock.

Because for a player as good as Zion, he will eventually sign that huge contract and get those endorsement deals anyway as long as he stays healthy. It just takes a little longer. But at least he locks in that first top 10 rookie contract even if he ends up sucking.

 

[dtgold88]

Those guys are role players. What do you want?

And they can all defend. Yes. Battier was an awesome defender. One of the main reasons the Heat handled OKC in 2012 was because KD had to guard LeBron, while Battier was the primary defender on KD. And KD got in foul trouble 3 of 4 games they lost.

You asked for the Heat role players who could defend. I provided a list of them.

And I got news for you, your Cav role players were not better than this group. They were nothing special.

I asked who their top 3 role players were. Not the ones who could defend. The ones you picked proved my point as I knew it would. will say I'm shocked you didn't find a reason to add Mike Miller.

 

[dtgold88]

And yes, it is absolutely debatable about who the better shooter is between Allen and Korver. Ray Allen is in the conversation for second best shooter of all time.

Korver has a better 3 point percentage, but Allen better FG% overall and better from the line. And he also attracted a lot more attention from defenses throughout throughout his career because he was the far superior player. So that could explain the 3 point percentage difference.

I don’t actually know who the better shooter is. But it is close.

agree it was close when we consider entire career. And I'd even offer the extreme far better when it comes to their careers as the player overall. allen was far better than Korver. But this excercise has to do with what they did in Miami and Cleveland only. I mean, if not, than shame on Lebron for not winning a title with Shaq as he is one of the best centers/players ever.

But Allen was on that team to spread the floor and shoot and he was not as good a shooter as he had been throughout his career nor as good as Korver was in Cleveland.

 

[dtgold88]

Sure.

but what about the risk?

Michael Porter Jr. might have been the number 1 overall pick had he been allowed to leave after high school. Definitely would have been top 3.

Zion had that injury scare while at Duke and obviously wasn’t ready at the start of the season due to injury.

And that doesn’t even begin to factor in the bust factor. Cam Reddish was ranked ahead of Zion. He didn’t play up to expectations and his stock fell.

For any high schooler likely to be a lottery pick, there is a lot more downside to lose than upside to gain IF and ONLY IF they are a lottery lock.

Because for a player as good as Zion, he will eventually sign that huge contract and get those endorsement deals anyway as long as he stays healthy. It just takes a little longer. But at least he locks in that first top 10 rookie contract even if he ends up sucking.

No doubt if my kid is a lottery lock and draft was an option I'd tell him to enter the draft if he asked. If his goal was get to the NBA I'd steer him to enter the draft.

 

[dtgold88]

You caught me at a bad time. I'm busy doing nothing right now. But I should have some free time in a couple of hours.

Not sure if that comment was funnier or that @tlance facepalmed one of the comments in this portion of the thread.

I vote your comment as I actually did laugh out loud. Though I did not roll on the floor.

 

[tlance]

Not sure if that comment was funnier or that @tlance facepalmed one of the comments in this portion of the thread.

I vote your comment as I actually did laugh out loud. Though I did not roll on the floor.

I facepalmed you because though clearly a joke, you find a way to bring that mofo into way too many conversations.

 

[tlance]

agree it was close when we consider entire career. And I'd even offer the extreme far better when it comes to their careers as the player overall. allen was far better than Korver. But this excercise has to do with what they did in Miami and Cleveland only. I mean, if not, than shame on Lebron for not winning a title with Shaq as he is one of the best centers/players ever.

But Allen was on that team to spread the floor and shoot and he was not as good a shooter as he had been throughout his career nor as good as Korver was in Cleveland.

But he was a far better player still.

He played some defense and was capable of doing more offensively than just catch and shoot.

 

[tlance]

I asked who their top 3 role players were. Not the ones who could defend. The ones you picked proved my point as I knew it would. will say I'm shocked you didn't find a reason to add Mike Miller.

Top 3 role players:

Chalmers, Battier, Allen

That is a really solid trio of role players. Dependable and capable of doing their job on both ends. Cav role players were more of specialists. Heat guys were better players, IMO.

 

[dtgold88]

I facepalmed you because though clearly a joke, you find a way to bring that mofo into way too many conversations.

The 2 people involved found the humor in it. Clearly, it was sarcasm.

But you be you, Facepalm Boy.

 

[dtgold88]

But he was a far better player still.

He played some defense and was capable of doing more offensively than just catch and shoot.

OK, Extreme Boy.

 

[dtgold88]

Top 3 role players:

Chalmers, Battier, Allen

That is a really solid trio of role players. Dependable and capable of doing their job on both ends. Cav role players were more of specialists. Heat guys were better players, IMO.

Not really. Hell, Deron Williams - picked up off the scrap heap - offered about as much as Chalmers. Jefferson, Korver, TT and JR offered more. want a little more D, bring in Shump.

Allen was brought in as a shooter to spread the floor for Miami (and Lebron). and he did not do that as well as Korver did for the Cavs.

 

[tlance]

Not really. Hell, Deron Williams - picked up off the scrap heap - offered about as much as Chalmers. Jefferson, Korver, TT and JR offered more. want a little more D, bring in Shump.

Allen was brought in as a shooter to spread the floor for Miami (and Lebron). and he did not do that as well as Korver did for the Cavs.

LOL.

Deron Williams was solid. Forgot he was on that team. But he was a shell of his former self.

When Mario Chalmers played alongside LeBron in Miami, he was a 5 win share player. Not really comparable to the player that used to be Deron Williams.

 

[lebron23james]

Those guys are role players. What do you want?

And they can all defend. Yes. Battier was an awesome defender. One of the main reasons the Heat handled OKC in 2012 was because KD had to guard LeBron, while Battier was the primary defender on KD. And KD got in foul trouble 3 of 4 games they lost.

You asked for the Heat role players who could defend. I provided a list of them.

And I got news for you, your Cav role players were not better than this group. They were nothing special.

The Cavs had a better offensive and defensive playoff rating in 2016, than any of the 4 year heat teams. In fact that Cavs team in 16 believe it or not has the best offensive rating in the history of the NBA and they hold the record for most 3 pointers made in the playoffs ever, which seems a little better than Allen imho Well beating the only 73 win team in history... So i mean there is that...Seems pretty super teamish to me lol

I will concede the 2017 and 2018 team wasn't great tho...Mainly because they no longer had a big 3, but they still made the finals. I don't think if you took wade off the heat they would have been able to do that. But the 2015 and 2016 was considerably better including role players and that is what the statistics show...And the competition was much stronger...Their was no weak Dallas or young inexperienced OKC to play

 

[tlance]

The Cavs had a better offensive and defensive playoff rating in 2016, than any of the 4 year heat teams. In fact that Cavs team in 16 believe it or not has the best offensive rating in the history of the NBA and they hold the record for most 3 pointers made in the playoffs ever, which seems a little better than Allen imho Well beating the only 73 win team in history... So i mean there is that...Seems pretty super teamish to me lol

I will concede the 2017 and 2018 team wasn't great tho...Mainly because they no longer had a big 3, but they still made the finals. I don't think if you took wade off the heat they would have been able to do that. But the 2015 and 2016 was considerably better including role players and that is what the statistics show...And the competition was much stronger...Their was no weak Dallas or young inexperienced OKC to play

You just love making shit up don’t you?

You do realize that for defensive rating a lower number is better right?

And as for the “best offensive rating ever”, I just had to look up 1 year. The 2017 Warriors had a better playoff offensive rating than the 2016 Cavs.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff?