The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[dtgold88]

LOL.

Deron Williams was solid. Forgot he was on that team. But he was a shell of his former self.

When Mario Chalmers played alongside LeBron in Miami, he was a 5 win share player. Not really comparable to the player that used to be Deron Williams.

agree....but cavs had that Kyrie fellow as the starting PG so didn't need more than a shell of Deron williams.

since you bring up WS, though, Haslem had around 8 WS. That'd be great, but it was in 4 years with Lebron. TTs 2 full seasons with Lebron he was at 8.7 and 8.3. Yes, far better than any Heat roll player. Battier highs were 3.3 and 4.4. JR was 3.8 and 5.5 (about the same as Ray allen). RJ and Frye were both better than Haslem.

Glad you brought it up.

 

[tlance]

agree....but cavs had that Kyrie fellow as the starting PG so didn't need more than a shell of Deron williams.

since you bring up WS, though, Haslem had around 8 WS. That'd be great, but it was in 4 years with Lebron. TTs 2 full seasons with Lebron he was at 8.7 and 8.3. Yes, far better than any Heat roll player. Battier highs were 3.3 and 4.4. JR was 3.8 and 5.5 (about the same as Ray allen). RJ and Frye were both better than Haslem.

Glad you brought it up.

Haslem was like their 3rd big.

One of the guys I listed as a quality defender. Not 1 of the guys I listed as a top role player.

You are doing an excellent job distracting from the point though.

I don’t particularly care about Heat role players vs. Cav role players.

You can make any case you want using those stats, but there are dozens of teams over the last 20 years with resumes equal to or better than the 2017 Cavs.

So your claim remains ludicrous.

And you never answered my direct question.

Can you name 1 team in the last 20 years who had an easier path to the Finals than the 2017 Cavs?

 

[dtgold88]

Haslem was like their 3rd big.

One of the guys I listed as a quality defender. Not 1 of the guys I listed as a top role player.

You are doing an excellent job distracting from the point though.

I don’t particularly care about Heat role players vs. Cav role players.

You can make any case you want using those stats, but there are dozens of teams over the last 20 years with resumes equal to or better than the 2017 Cavs.

So your claim remains ludicrous.

And you never answered my direct question.

Can you name 1 team in the last 20 years who had an easier path to the Finals than the 2017 Cavs?

Better resumes? agreed. Though as usual dozens is extreme. Because one of the teams I said is better is GS who the cavs faced every time they made the Finals. That matters.

and of course you don't care about their role players as you have finally figured out the cavs role players were better and even admitted Kyrie and Love are better fits with that Lebron fellow than Wade/Bosh.

To answer your question, nope....but I also did no research.

 

[tlance]

Better resumes? agreed. Though as usual dozens is extreme. Because one of the teams I said is better is GS who the cavs faced every time they made the Finals. That matters.

and of course you don't care about their role players as you have finally figured out the cavs role players were better and even admitted Kyrie and Love are better fits with that Lebron fellow than Wade/Bosh.

To answer your question, nope....but I also did no research.

Dozens not extreme at all.

There were 19 teams who won titles. They automatically go ahead.

then a host more who made the Finals with better records and facing a significantly harder path to get there.

Then you have to factor in top teams that didn’t make the Finals like the ‘18 Rockets, the ‘19 Bucks, etc.

Yes. There are dozens of teams with better resumes than the ‘17 Cavs. If I took the time to look, I could probably find 30 no brainers and 20-30 more with comparable resumes.

 

[tlance]

And before you have a heart attack, I am not saying that every team with a stronger resume is necessarily better.

Like the ‘19 Bucks would not have beat the ‘17 Cavs in a series.

But their resume is just as strong, if not slightly more impressive.

 

[msgkings322]

Dozens not extreme at all.

There were 19 teams who won titles. They automatically go ahead.

then a host more who made the Finals with better records and facing a significantly harder path to get there.

Then you have to factor in top teams that didn’t make the Finals like the ‘18 Rockets, the ‘19 Bucks, etc.

Yes. There are dozens of teams with better resumes than the ‘17 Cavs. If I took the time to look, I could probably find 30 no brainers and 20-30 more with comparable resumes.

Not sure every title team is automatically a better team. Some teams won titles vs hobbled opponents, etc.

 

[tlance]

Not sure every title team is automatically a better team. Some teams won titles vs hobbled opponents, etc.

I didn’t see they were automatically better, but they do all have better resumes.

You said the ‘17 Cavs were one of the best teams of the millennium. Ranking them ahead of title winning Heat, Spur and Celtic teams among others.

 

[msgkings322]

I didn’t see they were automatically better, but they do all have better resumes.

You said the ‘17 Cavs were one of the best teams of the millennium. Ranking them ahead of title winning Heat, Spur and Celtic teams among others.

Did I?

 

[tlance]

Did I?

LOL.

no you didn’t.

sorry.

 

[dtgold88]

Dozens not extreme at all.

There were 19 teams who won titles. They automatically go ahead.

then a host more who made the Finals with better records and facing a significantly harder path to get there.

Then you have to factor in top teams that didn’t make the Finals like the ‘18 Rockets, the ‘19 Bucks, etc.

Yes. There are dozens of teams with better resumes than the ‘17 Cavs. If I took the time to look, I could probably find 30 no brainers and 20-30 more with comparable resumes.

automatically go ahead as better (which was what this was about)? Doesn't even matter who they faced in the Finals? stopped reading after that.

 

[dtgold88]

And before you have a heart attack, I am not saying that every team with a stronger resume is necessarily better.

Like the ‘19 Bucks would not have beat the ‘17 Cavs in a series.

But their resume is just as strong, if not slightly more impressive.

Wasn't solely about resume. Never said cavs had the better resume. said wasn't sure anyone other than GS or Lakers teams were better than they were. Beating other teams would not disprove that theory.

Heart attack? All in good fun for me, and often comical reading your comments.

Love to hear again how Kyrie/Love were better fits to play with Lebron than wade/Bosh yet the Miami team led by Lebron was better than the Cavs team led by Lebron....and you did all you could to ignore the other players for obvious reason.

 

[dtgold88]

I didn’t see they were automatically better, but they do all have better resumes.

You said the ‘17 Cavs were one of the best teams of the millennium. Ranking them ahead of title winning Heat, Spur and Celtic teams among others.

Yep...still think they are. None of those teams faced an all time great GS team.

 

[tlance]

Wasn't solely about resume. Never said cavs had the better resume. said wasn't sure anyone other than GS or Lakers teams were better than they were. Beating other teams would not disprove that theory.

Heart attack? All in good fun for me, and often comical reading your comments.

Love to hear again how Kyrie/Love were better fits to play with Lebron than wade/Bosh yet the Miami team led by Lebron was better than the Cavs team led by Lebron....and you did all you could to ignore the other players for obvious reason.

Kyrie and Love fit better in theory.

Wade and Bosh were better players. At least the early version of Wade.

And yes, Bosh is a better 3rd option regardless of what the prior stats say. Because Bosh can defend. The Heat trio also seemed to enjoy playing together where there often seemed to be turmoil in Cleveland. And fit on paper doesn’t trump the real chemistry that the Heat had. Even though the skill sets of the pieces didn’t fit quite as well.

 

[dtgold88]

Kyrie and Love fit better in theory.

Wade and Bosh were better players. At least the early version of Wade.

And yes, Bosh is a better 3rd option regardless of what the prior stats say. Because Bosh can defend. The Heat trio also seemed to enjoy playing together where there often seemed to be turmoil in Cleveland. And fit on paper doesn’t trump the real chemistry that the Heat had. Even though the skill sets of the pieces didn’t fit quite as well.

They don't fit better in theory, they fit better....period.

Here you go with the defense angle again with no way to really back it than "just because". You thinking Miami does just as well against 4 GS teams (once without Wade and Bosh) as they did when Dallas and OKC were sprinkled in?

Cavs team in Lebron's first go around were better defensive teams than the 2nd, so they must have been better....yet you have said they are not. Probably because they were not.

Here's a flash....O matters, too. and Kyrie and Lover were both better fits on O....never mind, yes, the Cavs had better role players despite your well past their prime mentions of the Miami guys, which was comical.

 

[tlance]

They don't fit better in theory, they fit better....period.

Here you go with the defense angle again with no way to really back it than "just because". You thinking Miami does just as well against 4 GS teams (once without Wade and Bosh) as they did when Dallas and OKC were sprinkled in?

Cavs team in Lebron's first go around were better defensive teams than the 2nd, so they must have been better....yet you have said they are not. Probably because they were not.

Here's a flash....O matters, too. and Kyrie and Lover were both better fits on O....never mind, yes, the Cavs had better role players despite your well past their prime mentions of the Miami guys, which was comical.

Yes.

I think Miami actually does better against GS if players were in their primes as they were in 2012.

Are you trying to suggest that Bosh isn’t a much better defender than Kevin Love? Really?

 

[dtgold88]

Yes.

I think Miami actually does better against GS if players were in their primes as they were in 2012.

Are you trying to suggest that Bosh isn’t a much better defender than Kevin Love? Really?

No, I'm not trying to say that Love is the better defender and nothing I wrote should have made you believe I did.

what I was not only trying to say, but I said, was in Lebron's first go-around here his best teams played better defense than in his second go around. Yet you have agreed his second team was definitely the better team.

so maybe stop using D as a crutch so often when other points ruin your narrative?

 

[tlance]

No, I'm not trying to say that Love is the better defender and nothing I wrote should have made you believe I did.

what I was not only trying to say, but I said, was in Lebron's first go-around here his best teams played better defense than in his second go around. Yet you have agreed his second team was definitely the better team.

so maybe stop using D as a crutch so often when other points ruin your narrative?

I will not.

Because every great team I have ever seen could BOTH play offense and defense at a very high level. Every single one.

There have been some very good teams, even championship caliber teams who were great on one side and average on the other. That is what the Cavs were.

But when you start talking about historically great, elite teams, they do BOTH extremely well.

The ‘96 Bulls were maybe the best defense ever and also perhaps the best offensive team in the league. The ‘17 Warriors were arguably the best offense ever AND a top 2 defensive unit.

The best Heat teams were top 5 in both offense and defensive efficiency.

Your claim implies that the Cavs were a great team. And they weren’t.

 

[msgkings322]

Thi

I will not.

Because every great team I have ever seen could BOTH play offense and defense at a very high level. Every single one.

There have been some very good teams, even championship caliber teams who were great on one side and average on the other. That is what the Cavs were.

But when you start talking about historically great, elite teams, they do BOTH extremely well.

The ‘96 Bulls were maybe the best defense ever and also perhaps the best offensive team in the league. The ‘17 Warriors were arguably the best offense ever AND a top 2 defensive unit.

The best Heat teams were top 5 in both offense and defensive efficiency.

Your claim implies that the Cavs were a great team. And they weren’t.

This is the simple bottom line. Cavs were not all time great, and no one but Cleveland homers think they are

They barely beat a great team because of some bad luck factors for the Ws, just as the Ws had some good luck in 2015. I don't want to get into who had worse luck those two years, my argument is simply you can't use 2016 to say the Cavs were all time greats. And when the Ws went from great to all time great the Cavs didn't put up any resistance

They were very very good and deserving champs, full stop.

 

[trojanfan12]

I will not.

Because every great team I have ever seen could BOTH play offense and defense at a very high level. Every single one.

There have been some very good teams, even championship caliber teams who were great on one side and average on the other. That is what the Cavs were.

But when you start talking about historically great, elite teams, they do BOTH extremely well.

The ‘96 Bulls were maybe the best defense ever and also perhaps the best offensive team in the league. The ‘17 Warriors were arguably the best offense ever AND a top 2 defensive unit.

The best Heat teams were top 5 in both offense and defensive efficiency.

Your claim implies that the Cavs were a great team. And they weren’t.

No one equates the Showtime Lakers with great defense, but I believe they were top 10 defensively in their era.

 

[tlance]

No one equates the Showtime Lakers with great defense, but I believe they were top 10 defensively in their era.

And they are in the conversation with the ‘17 Warriors for all time best offense.