Take your pick: Duncan or Kobe

[TBBishop]

If what you were saying was true, then it would be a real debate. However Duncan does NOT give you 25-30 points and 10 rebs a night. ...Duncan is a 20 pt scorer, and 11 reb guy...That just doesn't compete with Kobe. Sorry.

You know I wouldn't have believed that if I didn't look it up but your right, he only averaged 25+ once in his career. The way people talk about this guy you would think he averaged 35.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

All we hear about is how players perform in the Finals. They are judged more by what they did in the Finals than what they did leading up to them. That's why we always hear "MJ undefeated in the Finals, Hakeem had little help in the Finals, Magic played spectacular in that Finals game when Kareem was out" etc...etc...

In the 5 Finals series that Kobe has played in an won....he's been bad in more of them than he's been great. He may put up a lot of points but most of the time he wasn't very efficient when doing so. Averaging 32 points on 27FGA in a Finals series isn't that impressive to me.

Okay we can chalk up the 3 peat as 3 good finals he played. During the 2002 Finals Bryant averaged 26 points on 51% shooting which included scoring a quarter of the team's points, not to mention being clutch in the 4th.

2003-2004 season Kobe hits 2 buzzer beaters to win the division title during the final game of the regular season, eventually lost to the Pistons, Kobe shot 35% on 22 ppg. 3 good 1 bad so far.

I'll give you the 2008 Finals. 3 to 2.

The slaughter against Dwight and Orlando? Kobe averaged 32/7/5 with 1.4 blocks and steals per game. The first since Michael Jordan to average 30/5/5 for a title winning team in the Finals. 4 to 2.

During the 2009-2010 season Bryant made 6 buzzer beaters including a 1 legged 3 pointer against the Heat in Wade's face. Kobe played through an avulsion fracture on the index finger of his shooting hand that year. Kobe went 66 for 163 in the Finals, he had more steals than anyone, more rebounds than anyone not named Gasol, more assists than anyone not named Rondo. In game 7, despite shooting only 6-24 from the field, Bryant led the Lakers back from a thirteen point third quarter deficit. He scored 10 of his game high 23 points in the 4th quarter and finished the game with 15 rebounds. Plus he won the title.

Kobe has played well in more Finals than not. What a coincidence, his teams seem to lose when he doesn't play well.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

All we hear about is how players perform in the Finals. They are judged more by what they did in the Finals than what they did leading up to them. That's why we always hear "MJ undefeated in the Finals, Hakeem had little help in the Finals, Magic played spectacular in that Finals game when Kareem was out" etc...etc...

In the 5 Finals series that Kobe has played in an won....he's been bad in more of them than he's been great. He may put up a lot of points but most of the time he wasn't very efficient when doing so. Averaging 32 points on 27FGA in a Finals series isn't that impressive to me.

I seem to have misunderstood the point lol. So LeBron gets a pass on bad shooting nights for doing a little of everything but Kobe doesn't?

 

[OutlawImmortal]

You know I wouldn't have believed that if I didn't look it up but your right, he only averaged 25+ once in his career. The way people talk about this guy you would think he averaged 35.

The San Antonio system is about sharing the ball though, if nothing else his consistency should be remarkable to you.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

DUNCAN was unquestionably the best player on the SPURS from 98-2007 and all 4 titles.

SHAQ was unquestionably the best player on the LAKERS from 1996-2004 and all 3 titles.
It was not 1A and 1b. It was Batman and robin.

Parker got hot in the finals, but that was still a DUNCAN team in 2007.
Duncan was the 2007 best player and led the team in Win Shares, individual awards, and PER.
Suppose Danny Green wins the finals MVP in 2013, that doesn't mean he was the best player on the Spurs.

Kobe played robin for far too long.

And when he finally was the main guy, he struggled to even make the playoffs.

Then when he got help from an all-NBA center, he still could not generate the top WIN SHARES.
Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares both title years of 2009 and 2010.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

DUNCAN was unquestionably the best player on the SPURS from 98-2007 and all 4 titles.

SHAQ was unquestionably the best player on the LAKERS from 1996-2004 and all 3 titles.
It was not 1A and 1b. It was Batman and robin.

Parker got hot in the finals, but that was still a DUNCAN team in 2007.
Duncan was the 2007 best player and led the team in Win Shares, individual awards, and PER.
Suppose Danny Green wins the finals MVP in 2013, that doesn't mean he was the best player on the Spurs.

Kobe played robin for far too long.

And when he finally was the main guy, he struggled to even make the playoffs.

Then when he got help from an all-NBA center, he still could not generate the top WIN SHARES.
Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares both title years of 2009 and 2010.

Yes, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Aaron McKie, that's a championship team right there

 

[Sman2011]

Sman...When LBJ was 22 yrs old 08-09 playoffs he avg'd 35/9/7 on 51 pct shooting....Gimme a break

When Lebron was 22 years old...You mean 24 years old....

However, he did put up great numbers in a losing effort. Personally I felt Lebron tried to be a hero against Orlando, and cost them the series that year. Cavs clearly had the better team that year. They were a 67 win team...

When Kobe puts up great numbers it usually results in championships. Because Kobe does whatever it takes t win, plus doesn't collapse at the end of games like Lebron does...

 

[shitsho]

DUNCAN was unquestionably the best player on the SPURS from 98-2007 and all 4 titles.

SHAQ was unquestionably the best player on the LAKERS from 1996-2004 and all 3 titles.
It was not 1A and 1b. It was Batman and robin.

Parker got hot in the finals, but that was still a DUNCAN team in 2007.
Duncan was the 2007 best player and led the team in Win Shares, individual awards, and PER.
Suppose Danny Green wins the finals MVP in 2013, that doesn't mean he was the best player on the Spurs.

Kobe played robin for far too long.

And when he finally was the main guy, he struggled to even make the playoffs.

Then when he got help from an all-NBA center, he still could not generate the top WIN SHARES.
Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares both title years of 2009 and 2010.

Thats what I keep telling people but most of them have on their super Kobe panties. They look at a bunch of stats and get confused because they dont recall the game situations. If I had Shaq on my team I could average 40 pts a game with them double teaming Shaq. Face it everyone. Kobe was robin to Shaqs Batman during those 3 rings and Gasol definitely saved his ass for 1 of the rings post Shaq.

 

[SportsChic]

they play 2 different positions. not an easy comparison...

Ha ha Punchline!

Should of just started a Lakers hate club thread.

Simple Jack will kiss your ass for that so he can post Kobiana.

 

[HizzleRocker]

Thats what I keep telling people but most of them have on their super Kobe panties. They look at a bunch of stats and get confused because they dont recall the game situations. If I had Shaq on my team I could average 40 pts a game with them double teaming Shaq. Face it everyone. Kobe was robin to Shaqs Batman during those 3 rings and Gasol definitely saved his ass for 1 of the rings post Shaq.

There are so many things wrong with this. Your contention: Kobe was able to score more because of Shaq.

2002 - Kobe averaged 25.2pts/game (with Shaq)
2003 - Kobe averaged 30.0
2004 - Kobe averaged 24.0
2005 - Kobe averaged 27.6
2006 - Kobe averaged 35.4
2007 - Kobe averaged 31.6

I could keep going and going and going.

Now please explain to me how it was all Shaq's doing that Kobe was able to score??????

I think it could also be noted that after Shaq left - Kobe's assists went up as well. He averaged 6/game in 2 of the next 3 years.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Thats what I keep telling people but most of them have on their super Kobe panties. They look at a bunch of stats and get confused because they dont recall the game situations. If I had Shaq on my team I could average 40 pts a game with them double teaming Shaq. Face it everyone. Kobe was robin to Shaqs Batman during those 3 rings and Gasol definitely saved his ass for 1 of the rings post Shaq.

Ariza played lights out for us in 09, and he won a few games for us with his defense. Gasol's defense and toughness was always in question against Dwight and KG, only difference was his passing and post offense was far more reliable. D Fish made huge shots for us in game 3 against the Celtics and I believe he hit another big shot in game 6 or 7, can't really recall. Overall, Kobe was the man, and in those years he had a terrible team he was still putting up 40 on a regular basis, oh and you know, that 81 point game lol.

Like I said before, you need a good team to win a title and even then it's still hard as you can see with the Heat this year - it's not that easy to win a title buddy.

 

[shitsho]

There are so many things wrong with this. Your contention: Kobe was able to score more because of Shaq.

2002 - Kobe averaged 25.2pts/game (with Shaq)
2003 - Kobe averaged 30.0
2004 - Kobe averaged 24.0
2005 - Kobe averaged 27.6
2006 - Kobe averaged 35.4
2007 - Kobe averaged 31.6

I could keep going and going and going.

Now please explain to me how it was all Shaq's doing that Kobe was able to score??????

I think it could also be noted that after Shaq left - Kobe's assists went up as well. He averaged 6/game in 2 of the next 3 years.

I don't get what is so confusing Hizzle. Its pretty simple logic. Kobe has his best years with Shaq. Kobe was a poor shooter when he first came in the league. Kobe was able to develop into the shooter he is now due to Shaqs presence. I don't get the importance of your graph? His highest fg% years were with Shaq. Look at what happened to his fg% and points after Shaq left.

 

[HizzleRocker]

I don't get what is so confusing Hizzle. Its pretty simple logic. Kobe has his best years with Shaq. Kobe was a poor shooter when he first came in the league. Kobe was able to develop into the shooter he is now due to Shaqs presence. I don't get the importance of your graph? His highest fg% years were with Shaq. Look at what happened to his fg% and points after Shaq left.

The 2 years after Shaq left, Kobe averaged 27/6/6, and 35/5/5. Kobe and Shaq both made each other better. But it is definitely not because of Shaq that Kobe could score.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Yes, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, Smush Parker, Aaron McKie, that's a championship team right there

If he is the greatest player of his generation, making the playoffs would seem like a fairly easy thing to do even with D-leaguers.

Basketball is only 5 players on the court. You have a 53% chance of making the playoffs.

Kobe fan-boys try to take all the credit when the team wins.
When his team sucks, it is always "SMUSH PARKER".
George Bush got blamed less than Smush Parker.

2004 Miami Heat (won a playoff series)
D-Wade
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Eddie Jones
Rafer Alston
Brian Grant

2005 Lakers (missed the playoffs entirely/ finished 8 games below .500)
Kobe Bryant
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Chucky Atkins
Chris Mihm
Brian Grant


Maybe it is possible to win with those "horrifically bad rosters" that Kobe had????

 

[shitsho]

Ariza played lights out for us in 09, and he won a few games for us with his defense. Gasol's defense and toughness was always in question against Dwight and KG, only difference was his passing and post offense was far more reliable. D Fish made huge shots for us in game 3 against the Celtics and I believe he hit another big shot in game 6 or 7, can't really recall. Overall, Kobe was the man, and in those years he had a terrible team he was still putting up 40 on a regular basis, oh and you know, that 81 point game lol.

Like I said before, you need a good team to win a title and even then it's still hard as you can see with the Heat this year - it's not that easy to win a title buddy.

I'm not going to sit there and debate if Kobe can score or not. 81 pts against the Raptors is still 81 pts. Thats pretty self evident. I'm saying he developed those skills due to the attention paid to Shaq while he was there. Once Shaq left he had an adjustment period of 2 years or so and became even a better scorer.

 

[Sman2011]

I don't get what is so confusing Hizzle. Its pretty simple logic. Kobe has his best years with Shaq. Kobe was a poor shooter when he first came in the league. Kobe was able to develop into the shooter he is now due to Shaqs presence. I don't get the importance of your graph? His highest fg% years were with Shaq. Look at what happened to his fg% and points after Shaq left.

It stayed pretty much the same, montsho11...Always somewhere around 45-46 pct....

Perhaps montsho, you're the one that is 'confused'?

 

[shitsho]

The 2 years after Shaq left, Kobe averaged 27/6/6, and 35/5/5. Kobe and Shaq both made each other better. But it is definitely not because of Shaq that Kobe could score.

Check the shot attempts and fg% for Kobe plus add in what I said about him getting better. I was 1 year off. Dont get it twisted. Shaq did not need Kobe to score. He was a monster and its surprising that so called Laker fans forget that.

 

[Sman2011]

If he is the greatest player of his generation, making the playoffs would seem like a fairly easy thing to do even with D-leaguers.

Basketball is only 5 players on the court. You have a 53% chance of making the playoffs.

Kobe fan-boys try to take all the credit when the team wins.
When his team sucks, it is always "SMUSH PARKER".
George Bush got blamed less than Smush Parker.

2004 Miami Heat (won a playoff series)
D-Wade
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Eddie Jones
Rafer Alston
Brian Grant

2005 Lakers (missed the playoffs entirely/ finished 8 games below .500)
Kobe Bryant
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Chucky Atkins
Chris Mihm
Brian Grant


Maybe it is possible to win with those "horrifically bad rosters" that Kobe had????

I think more than anything your post shows the huge disparity between the Eastern Conference and Western....For example the year the Cavs made the finals and got SWEPT, they would not have gotten out of the first round in the West...In fact, they probably miss the playoffs entirely in the West.

One more thing, I think you forgot to mention how many games, Odom, and Kobe missed that year...Yeah you did....Nice try Horns...

 

[shitsho]

It stayed pretty much the same, montsho11...Always somewhere around 45-46 pct....

Perhaps montsho, you're the one that is 'confused'?

Actually 43%-45% Sman. His highest is 46.% with Shaq.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

If he is the greatest player of his generation, making the playoffs would seem like a fairly easy thing to do even with D-leaguers.

Basketball is only 5 players on the court. You have a 53% chance of making the playoffs.

Kobe fan-boys try to take all the credit when the team wins.
When his team sucks, it is always "SMUSH PARKER".
George Bush got blamed less than Smush Parker.

2004 Miami Heat (won a playoff series)
D-Wade
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Eddie Jones
Rafer Alston
Brian Grant

2005 Lakers (missed the playoffs entirely/ finished 8 games below .500)
Kobe Bryant
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Chucky Atkins
Chris Mihm
Brian Grant


Maybe it is possible to win with those "horrifically bad rosters" that Kobe had????

What about the year we made the playoffs and went up 3-1 on the #2 seed suns. We traded Caron after a year I believe and he didn't do shit with the Lakers.

And did Smush have a job after he left the Lakers?