Take your pick: Duncan or Kobe

[tlance]

Huge stretch? LOL.

You are right that Duncan won't get you 35 and 15.

But what you again fail to realize is that it isn't all about stats. The fact that you have 4 Lakers in your top 5 shows a lot of bias.

The only players on your list of 10 that are clearly greater than Duncan are MJ, Kareem and Magic. The rest are debatable. That does not mean I would put Duncan at 4, but you could make a case for him ahead if any other player on that list, depending on what you value most.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Huge stretch? LOL.

You are right that Duncan won't get you 35 and 15.

But what you again fail to realize is that it isn't all about stats. The fact that you have 4 Lakers in your top 5 shows a lot of bias.

The only players on your list of 10 that are clearly greater than Duncan are MJ, Kareem and Magic. The rest are debatable. That does not mean I would put Duncan at 4, but you could make a case for him ahead if any other player on that list, depending on what you value most.

^^^This. It is about teamwork, tbe ability towin as a team and Timmy does it better than just about everyone. He has been consitently great at all facets of the game. I don't have a top 10 list, but he is in there. And as far as pure Big men go he definitely top 10 also.

 

[trojanfan12]

Huge stretch? LOL.

You are right that Duncan won't get you 35 and 15.

But what you again fail to realize is that it isn't all about stats. The fact that you have 4 Lakers in your top 5 shows a lot of bias.

The only players on your list of 10 that are clearly greater than Duncan are MJ, Kareem and Magic. The rest are debatable. That does not mean I would put Duncan at 4, but you could make a case for him ahead if any other player on that list, depending on what you value most.

I'd put Wilt and Russell ahead of Timmy too!!

 

[trojanfan12]

I am not a Kobe fan. I think he is selfish and spoiled.

However, his work ethic is second to none and that, along with his innate athleticism is why he developed into one of greatest players of all time. Shaq had little to do with that.

As for who is better, you are comparing apples to oranges. I don't know why you guys insist on having this conversation. They are both in the top 10 all time. Can't we leave it at that?

I think the whole GOAT debate falls into the same apples to oranges category as well. Too many different skill sets depending on size, position, etc.

Top 10 all-time according to position seems a much better debate.

 

[Sman2011]

Huge stretch? LOL.

You are right that Duncan won't get you 35 and 15.

But what you again fail to realize is that it isn't all about stats. The fact that you have 4 Lakers in your top 5 shows a lot of bias.

The only players on your list of 10 that are clearly greater than Duncan are MJ, Kareem and Magic. The rest are debatable. That does not mean I would put Duncan at 4, but you could make a case for him ahead if any other player on that list, depending on what you value most.

Yeah, and as we all know the Lakers don't have a history of having some of the greatest players to ever play the game.....

WHAT? there's only 3 clearly better than Duncan? Serioulsy? You're going to seriously argue Duncan vs Wilt? Duncan Vs Russell? Duncan Vs Shaq? Duncan vs Hakeem (well I guess you can make a losing case)...Duncan vs Kobe is ridiculous as is Duncan vs Bird...

Tim is a nice piece to have, provided you surround him with other great pieces...Duncan doesn't have the ability to put a team on his back like Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Kobe or an Mj type player..

He's good though. Very good player.

 

[tlance]

Yeah, and as we all know the Lakers don't have a history of having some of the greatest players to ever play the game.....

WHAT? there's only 3 clearly better than Duncan? Serioulsy? You're going to seriously argue Duncan vs Wilt? Duncan Vs Russell? Duncan Vs Shaq? Duncan vs Hakeem (well I guess you can make a losing case)...Duncan vs Kobe is ridiculous as is Duncan vs Bird...

Tim is a nice piece to have, provided you surround him with other great pieces...Duncan doesn't have the ability to put a team on his back like Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Kobe or an Mj type player..

He's good though. Very good player.

Kobe did a great job putting the Lakers on his back and carrying them to titles after Shaq left.

Or, maybe he didn't win again until he got Pau Gasol. I can't remember.

Every player on your list had other great pieces on their title squads. Nobody can carry a great team by themselves, but I am sure you are going to post some BS stats suggesting otherwise.

As for Duncan's place in history, if you value stats ahead of wins, then Wilt > than Duncan, but you could make a case for Duncan over Russell since Duncan is more polished offensively. If you value wins over stats, than clearly Duncan doesn't measure up to Russell, but he is greater than Wilt.

I am not saying that I believe either of this arguments, but a case can be made. At a minimum, it is very difficult to rate Wilt and Russell due to the lack of quality big men aside from them.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

I am not a Kobe fan. I think he is selfish and spoiled.

However, his work ethic is second to none and that, along with his innate athleticism is why he developed into one of greatest players of all time. Shaq had little to do with that.

As for who is better, you are comparing apples to oranges. I don't know why you guys insist on having this conversation. They are both in the top 10 all time. Can't we leave it at that?

I wasn't trying to say Kobe was better than everyone, I was just tired of people diminishing Kobe's accomplishments, but you seem to get it.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Kobe did a great job putting the Lakers on his back and carrying them to titles after Shaq left.

Or, maybe he didn't win again until he got Pau Gasol. I can't remember.

Every player on your list had other great pieces on their title squads. Nobody can carry a great team by themselves, but I am sure you are going to post some BS stats suggesting otherwise.

As for Duncan's place in history, if you value stats ahead of wins, then Wilt > than Duncan, but you could make a case for Duncan over Russell since Duncan is more polished offensively. If you value wins over stats, than clearly Duncan doesn't measure up to Russell, but he is greater than Wilt.

I am not saying that I believe either of this arguments, but a case can be made. At a minimum, it is very difficult to rate Wilt and Russell due to the lack of quality big men aside from them.

Has LeBron ever won without Dwade and Bosh Spice? Lol.

 

[tlance]

Has LeBron ever won without Dwade and Bosh Spice? Lol.

That is the point though. People want to vilify LeBron for leaving Cleveland while Kobe has stayed "loyal". If Kobe had begun his career with a poorly managed franchise like the Cavs, how long do you think it would have taken him to leave? He demanded to be traded from the Lakers at least 2 separate times.

If LeBron had the good fortune to start his career with a better organization like Kobe did, then he probably would have stayed.

 

[Sman2011]

Kobe did a great job putting the Lakers on his back and carrying them to titles after Shaq left.

Or, maybe he didn't win again until he got Pau Gasol. I can't remember.

Every player on your list had other great pieces on their title squads. Nobody can carry a great team by themselves, but I am sure you are going to post some BS stats suggesting otherwise.

As for Duncan's place in history, if you value stats ahead of wins, then Wilt > than Duncan, but you could make a case for Duncan over Russell since Duncan is more polished offensively. If you value wins over stats, than clearly Duncan doesn't measure up to Russell, but he is greater than Wilt.

I am not saying that I believe either of this arguments, but a case can be made. At a minimum, it is very difficult to rate Wilt and Russell due to the lack of quality big men aside from them.

You mean Kobe did a great job carrying the Lakers after, Shaq, Malone, Fisher, Payton, and Phil Jackson left.

And your say 'nobody can carry a great team by themselves.' Well first of all if you have a great team there's no need to carry them by yourselves....

However my point is Duncan is a great piece to have if you have a great cast, and supporting system around you, and you need 20 and 10 from him....However, Duncan couldn't do what Shaq and Hakeem did some years by giving their team 30 points and 15 rebs....Duncan, certainly couldn't do what Jabbar, Wilt and Russell did as well by putting up ridiculous numbers like 30 pts and 20 rebs a game...

Essentially I'm saying Duncan can't be asked to carry too much of the load. He's not capable. He's a 20 & 10 guy and that's it. The other great big men I mentioned had "more game" than Duncan, more talent, and ability and could go out and dominate a game in a fashion that Duncan never showed he could

So in that sense, I think Duncan is a bit over-rated. Duncan get's a little too much credit for winning....IMO, the truly elite players in basketball have a resume of great stats, and multiple championships. Duncan has the multiple championships, but not great stats. Just good stats.

Kobe, Mj, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Kareem, Russell, hakeem, all have multiple championships and great stats.

That's my point.

 

[trojanfan12]

You mean Kobe did a great job carrying the Lakers after, Shaq, Malone, Fisher, Payton, and Phil Jackson left.

And your say 'nobody can carry a great team by themselves.' Well first of all if you have a great team there's no need to carry them by yourselves....

However my point is Duncan is a great piece to have if you have a great cast, and supporting system around you, and you need 20 and 10 from him....However, Duncan couldn't do what Shaq and Hakeem did some years by giving their team 30 points and 15 rebs....Duncan, certainly couldn't do what Jabbar, Wilt and Russell did as well by putting up ridiculous numbers like 30 pts and 20 rebs a game...

Essentially I'm saying Duncan can't be asked to carry too much of the load. He's not capable. He's a 20 & 10 guy and that's it. The other great big men I mentioned had "more game" than Duncan, more talent, and ability and could go out and dominate a game in a fashion that Duncan never showed he could

So in that sense, I think Duncan is a bit over-rated. Duncan get's a little too much credit for winning....IMO, the truly elite players in basketball have a resume of great stats, and multiple championships. Duncan has the multiple championships, but not great stats. Just good stats.

Kobe, Mj, Magic, Shaq, Bird, Kareem, Russell, hakeem, all have multiple championships and great stats.

That's my point.

I agree with much of this, however, I think you are discounting Duncan for being a team first player and for, let's face it, being boring!!

I'm not convinced that Duncan couldn't put up the numbers that the players you mention have. I think that he very well could have, but doesn't because he is a team player and sacrifices his own numbers to stay within Popovich's system.

When I coached high school basketball the head coach for the varsity (I was the j.v. coach and asst. varsity coach) used to pound into the players heads "Make the routine play!!" To me, that is Duncan to a T!! He's not going to throw down rim rattling dunks like Shaq, he doesn't really have a "signature move" or shot like the "Dream Shake" or the "Skyhook", he just does everything well and he will "make the routine play" every time!!

 

[Shanemansj13]

That is the point though. People want to vilify LeBron for leaving Cleveland while Kobe has stayed "loyal". If Kobe had begun his career with a poorly managed franchise like the Cavs, how long do you think it would have taken him to leave? He demanded to be traded from the Lakers at least 2 separate times.

If LeBron had the good fortune to start his career with a better organization like Kobe did, then he probably would have stayed.

Exactly. If Kobe wanted out of LA 2 times when he was winning championships, he wouldn't of lasted 2 or 3 years in Cleveland where nobody wants to go.

 

[Shanemansj13]

That is the point though. People want to vilify LeBron for leaving Cleveland while Kobe has stayed "loyal". If Kobe had begun his career with a poorly managed franchise like the Cavs, how long do you think it would have taken him to leave? He demanded to be traded from the Lakers at least 2 separate times.

If LeBron had the good fortune to start his career with a better organization like Kobe did, then he probably would have stayed.

Exactly. If Kobe wanted out of LA 2 times when he was winning championships, he wouldn't of lasted 2 or 3 years in Cleveland where nobody wants to go.

 

[tlance]

I agree with much of this, however, I think you are discounting Duncan for being a team first player and for, let's face it, being boring!!

I'm not convinced that Duncan couldn't put up the numbers that the players you mention have. I think that he very well could have, but doesn't because he is a team player and sacrifices his own numbers to stay within Popovich's system.

When I coached high school basketball the head coach for the varsity (I was the j.v. coach and asst. varsity coach) used to pound into the players heads "Make the routine play!!" To me, that is Duncan to a T!! He's not going to throw down rim rattling dunks like Shaq, he doesn't really have a "signature move" or shot like the "Dream Shake" or the "Skyhook", he just does everything well and he will "make the routine play" every time!!

Bingo. You clearly get it. Stats aren't everything. The most efficient players take what is available to them and don't try to force the action. Saying that Duncan isn't as good as Shaq because he never averaged 30 and 15 is silly.

By the way, Shaq's career averages of 23.7 and 10.9 aren't that different from Duncan's 20.2 and 11.2.

If Shaq had Duncan's work ethic, he would have been able to stay healthier longer, he and Kobe might have gotten along better, and we could be talking about Shaq in the same breath with Kareem and MJ. Instead, he is just a really good player who did not focus on his game as much as he should have.

 

[Lakers+USC=#1]

Exactly. If Kobe wanted out of LA 2 times when he was winning championships, he wouldn't of lasted 2 or 3 years in Cleveland where nobody wants to go.

2 times?

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Bingo. You clearly get it. Stats aren't everything. The most efficient players take what is available to them and don't try to force the action. Saying that Duncan isn't as good as Shaq because he never averaged 30 and 15 is silly.

By the way, Shaq's career averages of 23.7 and 10.9 aren't that different from Duncan's 20.2 and 11.2.

If Shaq had Duncan's work ethic, he would have been able to stay healthier longer, he and Kobe might have gotten along better, and we could be talking about Shaq in the same breath with Kareem and MJ. Instead, he is just a really good player who did not focus on his game as much as he should have.

Good post, I agree and even Shaq himself agrees.

 

[Shanemansj13]

2 times?

You're right, it was an uncountable number of times.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Exactly. If Kobe wanted out of LA 2 times when he was winning championships, he wouldn't of lasted 2 or 3 years in Cleveland where nobody wants to go.

I don't remember Kobe wanting to leave after he won a championship. He wanted to leave when he got a team worse than 60 win Cavs were. Obviously the Cavs aren't that badly managed, they got Kyrie and a few other good young players.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I don't remember Kobe wanting to leave after he won a championship. He wanted to leave when he got a team worse than 60 win Cavs were. Obviously the Cavs aren't that badly managed, they got Kyrie and a few other good young players.

My bad, I meant when he wasn't winning championships. As soon as he had a mediocre team like Lebron did his whole career in Cleveland he wanted to bolt. Lebron got to a Finals with a mediocre team, and Bryant barely got to the playoffs. So yeah, he wouldn't of lasted a couple yrs in Cleveland.

 

[Lakers+USC=#1]

You're right, it was an uncountable number of times.

Name them.