Sir Charles is and will ALWAYS be correct. Lebron doesn't and want to compete

[tlance]

No, it isn't. The rings argument is based on being a main player, not a role player. Amazing that people still try to use that bullshit argument.

It is relevant as a point. Obviously Horry is not in the conversation, but where do you draw the line? Common sense dictates that Horry is not a great player. To me, it is equally clear that Kobe is not on the level of LeBron.

Kobe was truly great. LeBron is a generational talent. There has to be more to the analysis than titles won. Way too many factors outside the players' control there.

 

[trojanfan12]

It is relevant as a point.

No, it's not relevant as a point. The point is number of championships that all time greats have won. Robert Horry is not an all time great. It's a strawman argument that Lebron ballwashers came up with to excuse his finals record.

To me, it is equally clear that Kobe is not on the level of LeBron.

I don't disagree, however, you are missing the point of what TLF was originally responding to. What had been stated was that Lebron had passed Kobe on every list. TLF pointed out that since Kobe has more rings, Lebron hasn't passed him on every list. Which is a fact.

Lebron also hasn't reached 30,000 points in his career which is another list he hasn't passed Kobe on.

In TLF's original response, he never claimed Kobe was better, just that he has more rings.

Also, even if TLF does place Kobe higher on the all time list, who's to say he's necessarily wrong? When talking about all time greats like Magic, MJ, Kareem and Bird...no one talks about how they played, how many MVP's they won or any of the other things that people use to elevate Lebron. They pretty much only talk about titles.

So, 10 or so years from now, who knows where Lebron may or may not be ranked? Peronally, I think he'll end up anywhere from #2 to #4, but who knows. As time passes, number of championships will become more important (just like they have with the other greats) and Kobe may end up being rated higher than Lebron based on that.

And fuck you for making me defend both TLF and Kobe.

 

[WiggyRuss]

No, it's not relevant as a point. The point is number of championships that all time greats have won. Robert Horry is not an all time great. It's a strawman argument that Lebron ballwashers came up with to excuse his finals record.



I don't disagree, however, you are missing the point of what TLF was originally responding to. What had been stated was that Lebron had passed Kobe on every list. TLF pointed out that since Kobe has more rings, Lebron hasn't passed him on every list. Which is a fact.

Lebron also hasn't reached 30,000 points in his career which is another list he hasn't passed Kobe on.

In TLF's original response, he never claimed Kobe was better, just that he has more rings.

Also, even if TLF does place Kobe higher on the all time list, who's to say he's necessarily wrong? When talking about all time greats like Magic, MJ, Kareem and Bird...no one talks about how they played, how many MVP's they won or any of the other things that people use to elevate Lebron. They pretty much only talk about titles.

So, 10 or so years from now, who knows where Lebron may or may not be ranked? Peronally, I think he'll end up anywhere from #2 to #4, but who knows. As time passes, number of championships will become more important (just like they have with the other greats) and Kobe may end up being rated higher than Lebron based on that.

And fuck you for making me defend both TLF and Kobe.

You are correct in that.

I mean- I dont think @Shanemansj13 or anyone else could possibly dispute that Kobe has more total points and has been on more teams that won titles than LeBron.

Of course LeBron is only 32.

My point was- and i dont know if @Shanemansj13 was trying to express the same thing- but i think he was trying to say that LeBron is the better overall player- and if you are ranking the best playersof all time- LeBron would be ahead of Kobe on that list.

@Shanemansj13 is that correct?



I mean- Kobe has a TON of points- its gonna take LeBron a long time to pass him, and a lot of health- If iwere to guess before all is said and done LeBron will pass him- but as of right now Kobe def. has more career points than LeBron and has been on more championships.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Wow, decided to double down on your stupid I see. You haven't even actually responded to TLF's post. Wiggy had said that Lebron has surpassed Kobe on EVERY list.

TLF pointed out that Kobe has 5 rings to Lebron's 3. Therefore, it's a fact that Lebron has not passed Kobe on EVERY list.

You really should try reading what you're responding to, it'll save you some embarrassment.

When he says 5>>>3 that is not explaining anything. I know it is your job to defend Laker fans but sticking up for dumbasses isn't a good look LOL....Saying 5 rings is better than 3 rings, sure it is true but since Lebron is now above Kobe it really shows nothing. Congrats he had better teammates and he was Robin for 3 rings. Lebron has surpassed Kobe, but because Kobe has 2 more rings???? He hasnt passed him in that category? Well the point is kinda mute bc Kobe is below him at this point. The only players Lebron is chasing is Kareem, Magic and MJ. Fact.

 

[Shanemansj13]

You are correct in that.

I mean- I dont think @Shanemansj13 or anyone else could possibly dispute that Kobe has more total points and has been on more teams that won titles than LeBron.

Of course LeBron is only 32.

My point was- and i dont know if @Shanemansj13 was trying to express the same thing- but i think he was trying to say that LeBron is the better overall player- and if you are ranking the best playersof all time- LeBron would be ahead of Kobe on that list.

@Shanemansj13 is that correct?



I mean- Kobe has a TON of points- its gonna take LeBron a long time to pass him, and a lot of health- If iwere to guess before all is said and done LeBron will pass him- but as of right now Kobe def. has more career points than LeBron and has been on more championships.

....so the ring talk is mute because Lebron has surpassed Kobe. The whole conversation that TLF brought up seemed like he is just a hater, which is expected, we are used to it lol. No biggie.

 

[WiggyRuss]

....so the ring talk is mute because Lebron has surpassed Kobe. The whole conversation that TLF brought up seemed like he is just a hater, which is expected, we are used to it lol. No biggie.

i dont know about anyone else- but what i think is the best criteria for comparing the best players of all time are League MVP's and Finals MVP's.

You cant be a #2 and get either one of those awards. Its just not possible. If you look at the recipients of those 2 awards- you are definitely getting the best players of all time.

Right now, Bron Bron has 3 Finals MVP's and 4 League MVP's. that puts him in territory- that- like you said- is only inhabited by Kareem, Magic, and MJ----- and Russell- though- as i have said quite a bit- and i know quite a few other people share my sentiment that Russell- while being the "greatest winner" of all time- is not on the leve of those other 4 guys- Kareem/Magic/MJ/LeBron.

 

[trojanfan12]

My point was- and i dont know if @Shanemansj13 was trying to express the same thing- but i think he was trying to say that LeBron is the better overall player- and if you are ranking the best playersof all time- LeBron would be ahead of Kobe on that list.

I agree to a point that Lebron is a better all around player. However, what needs to be considered as well, is what was asked of Kobe vs. what was asked of Lebron. To use the comparisons that most use for those 2, Lebron has been asked to be Magic while Kobe was asked to be MJ.

When Lebron has been needed to score, he has shown that he can score with the best who have ever done it. When Kobe has been asked to pass, he shown himself to be quite capable in that department (there's a reason he's the only member of the 30k points and 6k assists club). Now, I'm not going to pretend that Kobe's mindset hasn't always been "score first" or that Lebron has ever had a "score first" mentality. I'm just pointing out that both are great enough players that they could each adjust their game to whatever the team needed at any time. Both are are/were excellent defenders, so they both are all timers on that side of the ball.

I would definitely rank Lebron ahead of Kobe, but my point is that 10 or so years from now, we don't know how the all time greats will be ranked. For all we know, there's kid in jr. high right now who will one day be blowing all of these guys out of the water. lol

If we are going by all around games, both Magic and Lebron should be ranked ahead of MJ who was mainly about scoring and defense. But the sheer volume of points, the importance that is placed on championships and the fact that MJ is 6-0 in the finals puts him at the head of the class.

Lebron is currently 3-4 in the finals. Most think that if the Cavs face a healthy Warriors and maybe even a healthy Spurs team in the finals, Lebron will be 3-5. It's kind of hard to rank a guy with a 3-5 finals record ahead of guys who are 6-0, 6-4. 5-4, 5-2, etc.

On the other hand, say he wins another 2 or 3 titles? Now we're talking a Lebron with a 5-4 or 6-4 finals record and that, imo, would solidify him as #2 all time and make his case for being GOAT pretty solid as well.

 

[eaglesnut]

It's amazing that Lebron will have purposefully avoided the West for his entire career. He's so weak. The most fraudulent "great" ever.

 

[trojanfan12]

i dont know about anyone else- but what i think is the best criteria for comparing the best players of all time are League MVP's and Finals MVP's.

I disagree. These are individual awards, basketball is a team sport. Additionally, these are also subjective awards that are open to how the voters may feel about a certain player.

For example, maybe Kobe has more MVP's if he wasn't such an asshole for much of his career? Maybe Lebron has more MVP's if not for "Lebron fatigue"? Maybe Nash doesn't have any if he were more of an asshole? Maybe Kareem has more if he wasn't considered to have unfair advantages or wasn't looked at as being "aloof"?

Anytime you have a voted on award, it is subject to the bias of those voting. It would be like using number of all star games when we know that guys are voted in every year that have no business being there anymore, but they are guys the fans still want to see.

Championships are objective. You were either good enough to get there and win, or you weren't.

Having said that, I understand that not all contending teams are built equally. That group of castoffs that Lebron dragged to the finals in his first go around in Cleveland, clearly wasn't anywhere near what he went to the finals with in Miami and his current stint in Cleveland. But it's a lot better measuring stick than individual awards that are subject to bias.

 

[trojanfan12]

....so the ring talk is mute because Lebron has surpassed Kobe. The whole conversation that TLF brought up seemed like he is just a hater, which is expected, we are used to it lol. No biggie.

Wrong. The ring talk is not "mute" (the word you were looking for is "moot" get a dictionary). Once Lebron has retired and he and Kobe (among others) get farther away from their careers, the number of titles will become more important (just like it has with the other all time greats) and if Lebron still has a losing record in the finals, it will count against him more than it does now.

Also, someone disagreeing about where Lebron should be ranked doesn't make then a "hater" but calling them a "hater" for disagreeing with you, does make you a bitch.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I disagree. These are individual awards, basketball is a team sport. Additionally, these are also subjective awards that are open to how the voters may feel about a certain player.

For example, maybe Kobe has more MVP's if he wasn't such an asshole for much of his career? Maybe Lebron has more MVP's if not for "Lebron fatigue"? Maybe Nash doesn't have any if he were more of an asshole? Maybe Kareem has more if he wasn't considered to have unfair advantages or wasn't looked at as being "aloof"?

Anytime you have a voted on award, it is subject to the bias of those voting. It would be like using number of all star games when we know that guys are voted in every year that have no business being there anymore, but they are guys the fans still want to see.

Championships are objective. You were either good enough to get there and win, or you weren't.

Having said that, I understand that not all contending teams are built equally. That group of castoffs that Lebron dragged to the finals in his first go around in Cleveland, clearly wasn't anywhere near what he went to the finals with in Miami and his current stint in Cleveland. But it's a lot better measuring stick than individual awards that are subject to bias.

my reason for saying that is- it just seems like there is such a positive correlation on the recipients of those awards and the best players of all time.

If you use rings- you of course get outliers like the Horry's, the Kerr's etc.

look at a list:

Kareem- 6 MVP's
Russell- 5 MVP's
Jordan- 5 MVP's
LeBron- 4 MVP's
Wilt- 4 MVP's
Magic- 3 MVP's
Bird- 3 MVP's

There is definitely not any kind of list that so definitively includes the best players of all time at the top.

Final's MVP's
Jordan- 6 Finals MVPs
Magic- 3
Shaq- 3
Duncan- 3
LeBron- 3
Bird- 2
Kareem- 2
Olajawon- 2
Kobe- 2


now compare that to the greatest "winners" with the most rings in NBA history
Russell- 11
Sam Jones- 10
Heinson- 8
KC Jones- 8
Tom Sanders- 8
Havlicek- 8
Loscutoff- 7
Ramsey- 7
Horry- 7
Cousy- 6
Kareem- 6
Jordan- 6
Pippen- 6
Mikan- 5
Pollard- 5
Slater Martin- 5
Larry Siegried- 5
Don Nelson- 5
Michael Cooper- 5
Magic5-
Rodman- 5
Harper- 5
Kerr- 5
Kobe- 5
Fisher- 5
Duncan- 5
Frank Saul 4
Rambis 4
Parish -4

etc. etc.

When you look at those statistics- its beyond obvious- that if you are looking at the "best players of all time"- the awards with the highest correlation to what the general public thinks- is DEFINITELY league MVP awards, and behind that Fianls MVPs, and a far far behind 3rd- overall rings.

you cant back your way into a league MVP or Finals MVP award.

 

[trojanfan12]

It's amazing that Lebron will have purposefully avoided the West for his entire career. He's so weak. The most fraudulent "great" ever.

How do we know that Lebron purposefully avoided the West? Because he didn't sign with a Western Conference team in any of his FA periods?

At the time he was able to put together the big 3 in Miami...what Western Conference team was in a position to do what Miami was able to do? When he returned to the Cavs, what Western Conference team was able to pair him up with an up and coming young star like Kyrie and an in his prime young all star like Kevin Love (and that's not even considering the "returning hometown hero" story)? For that matter, what Western Conference team was willing to hand over the amount of control that the Cavs were willing to?

I'm as critical of Lebron as anyone, but I can't agree with this particular criticism. From what I can tell, he went where the best opportunity was for him to win titles, which I can't really blame him for. Especially when considering the importance of titles to the legacies of the all time greats.

 

[Wamu]

Wrong. The ring talk is not "mute" (the word you were looking for is "moot" get a dictionary). Once Lebron has retired and he and Kobe (among others) get farther away from their careers, the number of titles will become more important (just like it has with the other all time greats) and if Lebron still has a losing record in the finals, it will count against him more than it does now.

Also, someone disagreeing about where Lebron should be ranked doesn't make then a "hater" but calling them a "hater" for disagreeing with you, does make you a bitch.

Did Wilt or The Logo's Finals record diminish their careers? Is Dr. J looked @ as a lesser player because of only 1 ring? All 3 are considered all time greats. I think it's amazing that LeBron's been able to take his teams to 6 consecutive Finals. But his actions over his career makes it tough for me to really be a fan of his. Although just like all the greats I do like watching him play. Have I said fuck the Lakers lately? If not, fuck the Lakers!

 

[trojanfan12]

my reason for saying that is- it just seems like there is such a positive correlation on the recipients of those awards and the best players of all time.

True, but it still doesn't remove the fact that voter bias effects these awards. I mean, there isn't even a consensus on what constitutes an MVP. Some say the MVP is the best player in the game. Some say it's the best player on the best team and some say it's the guy who means the most to his team.

So, this year alone, you could have 3 different recipients of the MVP award depending on the definition used.

If it's best player in the game...it's Lebron.

If it's the best player on the best team...it's KD, Kawhi or Lebron depending on who wins the title.

If it's the player who means the most to his team...it's probably Westbrook or Harden.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

i dont know about anyone else- but what i think is the best criteria for comparing the best players of all time are League MVP's and Finals MVP's.

 

[WiggyRuss]

True, but it still doesn't remove the fact that voter bias effects these awards. I mean, there isn't even a consensus on what constitutes an MVP. Some say the MVP is the best player in the game. Some say it's the best player on the best team and some say it's the guy who means the most to his team.

So, this year alone, you could have 3 different recipients of the MVP award depending on the definition used.

If it's best player in the game...it's Lebron.

If it's the best player on the best team...it's KD, Kawhi or Lebron depending on who wins the title.

If it's the player who means the most to his team...it's probably Westbrook or Harden.

i totally agree- thats why its so damn hard to win an MVP. As GREAT as Kobe was- and hes a top 10 guy for me- or possibly JUST outside it- he only got 1- becuase its DAMN hard to win an MVP- a LOT has to come together.

Thats why its so impressive for guys like LEBron to have 4 (he should prob have AT LEAST 5) for wilt to have 4 for Michael to have freaking 6 (he should have AT LEAST 7- themal one one was a joke)!!!

I do think Kobe should PROBABLY have 2- as i think he should have gotten one of NAsh's- but that just further illustrates just how HARD it is to win that award. Its impossible to back into an MVP award.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Did Wilt or The Logo's Finals record diminish their careers? Is Dr. J looked @ as a lesser player because of only 1 ring? All 3 are considered all time greats. I think it's amazing that LeBron's been able to take his teams to 6 consecutive Finals. But his actions over his career makes it tough for me to really be a fan of his. Although just like all the greats I do like watching him play. Have I said fuck the Lakers lately? If not, fuck the Lakers!

of course not--- LeBron has been to 7 Finals and his team has been favored in 2 of them. If you compare who was favored- to who actually won- LeBron is actually +1.

 

[trojanfan12]

Did Wilt or The Logo's Finals record diminish their careers?

Do you see them in the top 5 all time?

Is Dr. J looked @ as a lesser player because of only 1 ring?

Do you see him ranked in the top 5 all time?

All 3 are considered all time greats.

And none of them are in the top 5 all time.

I think it's amazing that LeBron's been able to take his teams to 6 consecutive Finals.

It's also amazing that the Buffalo Bills made 4 consecutive Super Bowls. Yet, they are not even in the discussion for best teams all time.

But his actions over his career makes it tough for me to really be a fan of his.

I'll never be a Lebron fan, but I will always appreciate his talent.

Although just like all the greats I do like watching him play.

Me too. I hated Larry Bird when he was playing, but I sure did love watching him play.

Have I said fuck the Lakers lately? If not, fuck the Lakers!

Not today at least. And fuck the Celtics (except Isaiah Thomas) right back at ya.

 

[trojanfan12]

When he says 5>>>3 that is not explaining anything.

You said Lebron had passed Kobe on every list. TLF pointed out that he hadn't passed him in number of titles. Therefore, he hasn't passed him on every list. That seems to be a pretty easy to understand explanation.

I realize that when discussing Lebron it's very difficult for you to think clearly, but what further explanation was needed that would have made it easier for you to understand?

 

[trojanfan12]

of course not--- LeBron has been to 7 Finals and his team has been favored in 2 of them. If you compare who was favored- to who actually won- LeBron is actually +1.

Actually, yes it has. There was a time when Jerry West was in the GOAT conversation and a time when Wilt was ranked ahead of Kareem. Now, neither of them are even in the top 5. The reason is the importance placed on titles and their lack of them.