Post Your Top 3 AL/NL MVP/CYA - End of August

[rmilia1]

Yeah, I know. In my opinion, your opinion is wrong. Not like I'm mad at you.

LOL yeah people rarely debate something when they agree on it... that would make for a boring ass message board though.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Rmilla, I do agree that players from playoff teams should get the first chance to win the MVP, but the problem is that the playoff players are NOT even close to Harper or Goldshmidt... The only Playoff player that has any chance is Greinke IMO... But here is where you go crazy, you don't think SP can win the MVP but a relief pitcher can in the correct scenario... That part makes no sense at all, not that you think a relief pitcher CAN win, but the fact that you think a SP cant but a RP can...

I actually agree with you that a great bullpen is very under-rated... If you look at run differential and then records, you could see the importance of a good bullpen... In the playoffs I think a good bullpen is more important than a good rotation...

 

[Villain]

Honestly, I think the better move would be to make a bigger deal out of the Hank Aaron Award, which is the Cy Young for hitters. Seems like no one really cares about that one.

Hank Aaron - best hitter.
Cy Young - best pitcher.
Most Valuable Player - the player with the most value, period. (No, not the best player on a playoff team)

They should also consider a Trevor Hoffman / Mariano Rivera / Mike Marshall Award for best relief pitcher. I guess they call that the Fireman of the Year or something bogus like that?

I like awards, even if they're kinda meaningless in the grand scheme on things. (*cough* Gold Glove *cough*)

 

[DragonfromTO]

It is but its about value, you cant have value in something that amounted to nothing.

Let's see he takes the field and plays 2 innings defensively after hitting

 

[rmilia1]

Let's see he takes the field and plays 2 innings defensively after hitting

Well Id say itd be tough for him to be the MVP of the league because his chances to be valuable are pretty limited and it would also be tough for him to be more valuable than a guy that only sits out 1 day a week for the same reason BUT lets say the guy bats 162 times, gets 60 hits ( including 10-12 game winning RBI or walk offs ) then yes its completely within reason to say he could be more valuable than a guy who plays 130 games, hits .240 and doesnt do anything to note in clutch moments.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Let's see he takes the field and plays 2 innings defensively after hitting

Basically what I'm saying is, let's say he has about the same playing time ratios (about 30%) as a relief pitcher has. Could he be the MVP if those PAs are very very good and come in the "best" situations?

 

[DragonfromTO]

Well Id say itd be tough for him to be the MVP of the league because his chances to be valuable are pretty limited and it would also be tough for him to be more valuable than a guy that only sits out 1 day a week for the same reason BUT lets say the guy bats 162 times, gets 60 hits ( including 10-12 game winning RBI or walk offs ) then yes its completely within reason to say he could be more valuable than a guy who plays 130 games, hits .240 and doesnt do anything to note in clutch moments.

But that's not the comparison being made here. You weren't just saying that an elite season from a reliever is more valuable than the equivalent of a ".240, no clutch" season from a starting pitcher, you were saying that it's more valuable than any season from a starting pitcher.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Well Id say itd be tough for him to be the MVP of the league because his chances to be valuable are pretty limited and it would also be tough for him to be more valuable than a guy that only sits out 1 day a week for the same reason BUT lets say the guy bats 162 times, gets 60 hits ( including 10-12 game winning RBI or walk offs ) then yes its completely within reason to say he could be more valuable than a guy who plays 130 games, hits .240 and doesnt do anything to note in clutch moments.

Why doesn't the same argument apply to a reliever?

 

[rmilia1]

But that's not the comparison being made here. You weren't just saying that an elite season from a reliever is more valuable than the equivalent of a ".240, no clutch" season from a starting pitcher, you were saying that it's more valuable than any season from a starting pitcher.

Well the 2 comparisons arent the same, you are talking about a regular every day guy. Now if you asked me if a pinch hitter who played 80-85 games could be more valuable than a guy who played 32 games all the way through but never played otherwise then the answer is 100% yes.

 

[rmilia1]

Why doesn't the same argument apply to a reliever?

Because by definition every time a closer games in ( or almost every time... say 95% ) he has an opportunity to be valuable. If you asked me if a pinch hitter who came up 65 times with the game on the line every time and came through half of them then yes he would be much more valuable than even a guy who had a GREAT year but only played 32 games

 

[DragonfromTO]

Well the 2 comparisons arent the same, you are talking about a regular every day guy. Now if you asked me if a pinch hitter who played 80-85 games could be more valuable than a guy who played 32 games all the way through but never played otherwise then the answer is 100% yes.

This comparison is nonsense. In 32 games a position player has much much less of an impact than a starting pitcher has in 32 starts.

I'm talking about a guy that has 10 PAs for every 3 that the situational player has, just like a good starter throws about 10 innings for every 3 that a situational reliever throws. Since we're talking about hypotheticals anyway you can jam those PAs in as few games as you like, we can have him bat 15 times a game in 32 games to get there if you prefer.

 

[rmilia1]

This comparison is nonsense. In 32 games a position player has much much less of an impact than a starting pitcher has in 32 starts.

I'm talking about a guy that has 10 PAs for every 3 that the situational player has, just like a good starter throws about 10 innings for every 3 that a situational reliever throws. Since we're talking about hypotheticals anyway you can jam those PAs in as few games as you like, we can have him bat 15 times a game in 32 games to get there if you prefer.

Irrelevant to my argument. The entire premise of my argument is that a starter can only directly effect 1 out of every 5 games, it doesnt matter how much they effect those games. The game number is still finite and stationary.

 

[ericd7633]

Harper now has an OPS+ of 202, which puts that as a top 50 single season of all time.

Honestly it would be tragic if he didn't win the MVP, if he keeps up this pace.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Eh its my opinion, a dominant closer is far tougher co come by than a 1 starter, Pretty much every team in the league has an ace, sure some are at a higher level but a truly dominant closer is far more rare.

With how little you seem to understand about baseball, I'm impressed that you know what a closer is.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Its be one thing if Harper or Goldy were having historic type years. Theya rent, theyre just having really good years.

Harper's OPS+ ranks 49th of all time.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Also, for those saying Harper shouldn't win because his team has failed, keep in mind, the season is not over, and the Mets have a proven track record of shitting the bed at the end of the season.

 

[rmilia1]

Harper's OPS+ ranks 49th of all time.

I don't care only about OPS. Many of Harper's hits, rbi, hr have been meaningless. A lot easier to produce without prrssure.

 

[navamind]

I don't care only about OPS. Many of Harper's hits, rbi, hr have been meaningless. A lot easier to produce without prrssure.

Here's his "clutch" stats:

Bryce Harper 2015 Batting Splits | Baseball-Reference.com

Looks to me like the majority of his HR/runs/RBI have been with the Nats within 1-4 runs. Only 3 of his home runs have come with a margin of > 4 runs.

Ranks first in WPA/LI, and by a good margin:

Major League Leaderboards » 2015 » Batters » Win Probability Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Eh its my opinion, a dominant closer is far tougher co come by than a 1 starter, Pretty much every team in the league has an ace, sure some are at a higher level but a truly dominant closer is far more rare.

Your stupidity hurts my eyes.

Spoiler

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Here's his "clutch" stats:

Bryce Harper 2015 Batting Splits | Baseball-Reference.com

Looks to me like the majority of his HR/runs/RBI have been with the Nats within 1-4 runs. Only 3 of his home runs have come with a margin of > 4 runs.

Ranks first in WPA/LI, and by a good margin:

Major League Leaderboards » 2015 » Batters » Win Probability Statistics | FanGraphs Baseball

Dude. After rmilia's whole "closers are more valuable than starters" bit, what is the point in even debating him? It's like pushing a crippled kid down stairs.