Post Your Top 3 AL/NL MVP/CYA - End of August

[navamind]

Maybe, situational pitching is much bigger now than it used to be but the great teams have a lock down closer. Its the reason the Blue Jays arent great and the Cardinals/Pirates/Royals are..

Or, maybe it's luck. Just look at the 2012 and 2013 Orioles.

 

[rmilia1]

Toronto's closer has been dominant this year...


View attachment 25294

Toronto's closer has been dominant this year...


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??? Not really. He has been average and it hasnt been the same guy all year either. Youll have to clarify which guy you are talking about. Osuna has been OK, the other guys theyve used have sucked.

 

[StanMarsh51]

??? Not really. He has been average and it hasnt been the same guy all year either. Youll have to clarify which guy you are talking about. Osuna has been OK, the other guys theyve used have sucked.

Osuna has a 2.19 ERA, 0.85 WHIP, 16/17 saves, .181 opponents average, and 5.5 K/BB

If that's average/ok, I don't think you understand what a typical reliever's stats looks like.

 

[navamind]

??? Not really. He has been average and it hasnt been the same guy all year either. Youll have to clarify which guy you are talking about. Osuna has been OK, the other guys theyve used have sucked.

Osuna has a 211 ERA+, 0.85 WHIP, and ranks 6th among all relievers in WAR. He's been one of the best.

 

[DragonfromTO]

For the less educated the 3 best records in baseball belong to teams who are a combined 79-47 in one run games and ALL 3 of those teams have dominating closers. They also happen to have great starting pitching but the difference between a team being 30 games over .500 and a team being 15ish games over ( like the Blue Jays ) is closing. Hays are 13-24 in one run games and their closing situation has been atrocious all year. Just the way its always been and the way it will always be

The Blue Jays have a 62-0 record this season when leading after 8 innings. They haven't blown a single 9th inning lead all season.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Maybe, situational pitching is much bigger now than it used to be but the great teams have a lock down closer. Its the reason the Blue Jays arent great and the Cardinals/Pirates/Royals are..

Yeah, it's totally not because they've given almost two-thirds of their starts (84 of 131) to below average pitchers, some of them well below average (hello, Drew Hutchison) and spent most of the season with Marco freaking Estrada as their best starter.

Jays starters have an ERA of 4.06. AL average is 4.12.

Jays relievers have an ERA of 3.10. AL average is 3.66.

The worst starter ERA+ on the Cardinals would be the best on the Jays (except for 7 starts of Price).

 

[navamind]

Yeah, it's totally not because they've given almost two-thirds of their starts (84 of 131) to below average pitchers, some of them well below average (hello, Drew Hutchison) and spent most of the season with Marco freaking Estrada as their best starter.

Jays starters have an ERA of 4.06. AL average is 4.12.

Jays relievers have an ERA of 3.10. AL average is 3.66.

The worst starter ERA+ on the Cardinals would be the best on the Jays (except for 7 starts of Price).

Not to mention the Rogers Centre is an extreme hitters park.

 

[rmilia1]

The Blue Jays have a 62-0 record this season when leading after 8 innings. They haven't blown a single 9th inning lead all season.

Yet they have 18 blown saves ( most amongst any team in the playoff race ) and have a 60.87% save %. 2nd worst in baseball behind only the Rockies

 

[StanMarsh51]

Yet they have 18 blown saves ( most amongst any team in the playoff race ) and have a 60.87% save %. 2nd worst in baseball behind only the Rockies

Which might have nothing to do with the closer situation....setup guys in their normal roles can get blown saves, but can't get saves (only holds).

 

[obxyankeefan]

Yet they have 18 blown saves ( most amongst any team in the playoff race ) and have a 60.87% save %. 2nd worst in baseball behind only the Rockies

Hypothetical:

Jays have a 5-4 lead going into the seventh. A Jays reliever gives up a solo shot to tie the game, but the Jays score 2 in their half. Osuna comes in and pitches the ninth. The Jays win 7-5 with Osuna getting the save, but the reliever who gave up the HR in the seventh gets a blown save.

 

[Villain]

AL MVP:
1. Josh Donaldson
2. Mike Trout
3. Nelson Cruz

NL MVP:
1. Bryce Harper
2. Paul Goldschmidt
3. Joey Votto

AL CYA:
1. Chris Sale
2. Dallas Keuchel
3. Chris Archer

NL CYA:
1. Clayton Kershaw
2. Zack Greinke
3. Jake Arrieta

 

[ericd7633]

Maybe, situational pitching is much bigger now than it used to be but the great teams have a lock down closer. Its the reason the Blue Jays arent great and the Cardinals/Pirates/Royals are..

Holland with the Royals has been anything but great this year.

 

[ericd7633]

Once again thats not the question. Starters can be better pitchers and still be less valuable to a teams success

Melancon's been great for Pittsburgh. He has a WAR of 2.0. Greinke's is 7.7. A great starting pitcher is always more valuable than a great starting closer. If closers were so vital with a lot of value Rivera would have won a couple MVP's. But he never came close.

 

[ericd7633]

Holland and his 107 ERA+ is "lockdown" but Osuna with his 211 ERA+ isn't and he's merely "average"

 

[The Derski]

Always knew Arrieta was a sleeping giant.

 

[soxfan1468927]

No, but thats not the same question. There are plenty of guys in the league who are untoucahable period. Do you think the Angels trade Trout for DOnaldson?? Probably not. Does that mean Trout is 100% the MVP over Donaldson this year?? No.

It absolutely is the same question. If a dominant closer is more valuable than an ace pitcher, as you claim, then any GM would trade an ace pitcher for a dominant closer.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It absolutely is the same question. If a dominant closer is more valuable than an ace pitcher, as you claim, then any GM would trade an ace pitcher for a dominant closer.

Maybe not "any GM", but you'd think that at least one of them would. I don't think that any of them would. Has such a trade ever happened? Most of the trades for elite closers that I can think of don't come anywhere close to that.

 

[Villain]

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Try SIERA instead...

 

[Wazmankg]

Eh its my opinion, a dominant closer is far tougher co come by than a 1 starter, Pretty much every team in the league has an ace, sure some are at a higher level but a truly dominant closer is far more rare.

Not if we're talking apples to apples and comparing consistent dominant starters with consistent dominant relievers.... unless you started turning good starters into closers which would be a stupid waste of talent and brings me to the most compelling piece of evidence. There's a reason great starters make about twice what great relievers do. They're much harder to come by and much more valuable. It bugs me when a reliever even wins a CYA much less an MVP.

 

[navamind]

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Try SIERA instead...

Fair enough.