politics thread

[Stymietee]

My thought, since most of them got addicted through legal means, they should not be locked up, but put into treatment.. real treatment.

Doctors that prescribe this junk should be held liable.

Fair enough, if there is a current prescription addiction/dependency. However, once they cross over into using Meth/heroin etc. they get the same treatment as crack users.

 

[gkekoa]

Bringing things back to my topic......here's a question, there has never been an official end called on the "war on drugs" in this country so be careful answering this one.

Should Opioid/heroin abusers face automatic prison sentences and mandatory 3-5's for possession/use?

IMO, no they should not if they get their drugs legally.

The question then becomes, what if they get their drugs illegally?

Who pays for rehab?

Can you hold a doctor liable for the prescription when we have a FDA that says which drugs are legal and which are not?

 

[Sharkinva]

Fair enough, if there is a current prescription addiction/dependency. However, once they cross over into using Meth/heroin etc. they get the same treatment as crack users.

Which they should to a degree. think before we warehouse these people in jails and further ruin their lives, REAL treatment and support should be offered.

It would be cheaper and better for society at large to have all these people who spend 2 years in prison or more for drug use, to be sent to a rehab farm for a year. Teach them how to quit and stay sober, and have them actually work while they are there.

 

[gkekoa]

Which they should to a degree. think before we warehouse these people in jails and further ruin their lives, REAL treatment and support should be offered.

It would be cheaper and better for society at large to have all these people who spend 2 years in prison or more for drug use, to be sent to a rehab farm for a year. Teach them how to quit and stay sober, and have them actually work while they are there.

Good point...if it is cheaper.

 

[Sharkinva]

Good point...if it is cheaper.

TO a degree, even if its not cheaper.. at some point you need to do the HUMANE thing. To me its total BS that some one like Nichole Richie gets to go to a real treatment facility for no other reason than who her dad was. Mean while average joe is LUCKY if they even consider the effects of detox AFTER he is arrested, and the only treatment he gets is two years in a concrete box and the privilege of being labeled a criminal when he gets out.

 

[gkekoa]

TO a degree, even if its not cheaper.. at some point you need to do the HUMANE thing. To me its total BS that some one like Nichole Richie gets to go to a real treatment facility for no other reason than who her dad was. Mean while average joe is LUCKY if they even consider the effects of detox AFTER he is arrested, and the only treatment he gets is two years in a concrete box and the privilege of being labeled a criminal when he gets out.

I am more for fines than incarceration.

 

[Sharkinva]

I am more for fines than incarceration.

OK but aside from creating an incentive for the government and police to chase after drug users, what purpose do fines serve?? If you fine someone $1000 for using crack, which they likely cant afford to pay, how does that help them kick the habit??

 

[gkekoa]

OK but aside from creating an incentive for the government and police to chase after drug users, what purpose do fines serve?? If you fine someone $1000 for using crack, which they likely cant afford to pay, how does that help them kick the habit??

Sadly it doesn't. It isn't our responsibility to help them kick the habit. Here is my prediction.

1- Within ten years, the government will pay for rehabilitation.

2- Drug abuse will appear to go down but won't really.

3- Because the government is paying for rehab, the price of rehab will go up.

4- Rehab will work on about 10% of the people that go through. The rest will go back to their old ways because they do not want to change. Again, drugs are something you don't have to try. People still do because they chase a high.

 

[Sharkinva]

Sadly it doesn't. It isn't our responsibility to help them kick the habit. Here is my prediction.

1- Within ten years, the government will pay for rehabilitation.

2- Drug abuse will appear to go down but won't really.

3- Because the government is paying for rehab, the price of rehab will go up.

4- Rehab will work on about 10% of the people that go through. The rest will go back to their old ways because they do not want to change. Again, drugs are something you don't have to try. People still do because they chase a high.

See I think as a society we do have a responsibility to at least TRY and help others. So yea i do think we should be trying to help people kick addiction. I also think if the Government is paying for rehab, this SHOULD be a perfect opportunity to regulate the cost of such treatment.

Personally I dont think you every really kick an addiction, you just switch to a new fix. Most of the baseball players who were addicted to chewing tobacco switched to sun flower seeds. Most of your AA members dont drink, but the new habit is AA meetings, coffee and cigarette. Most ex smokers are either vaping, or chewing lots and lots of gum, or become work out addicts.

At the end of the day, good health care should not simply be a privilege of the wealthy. And kicking addiction does come down to solid health care and support systems.

 

[Stymietee]

Which they should to a degree. think before we warehouse these people in jails and further ruin their lives, REAL treatment and support should be offered.

It would be cheaper and better for society at large to have all these people who spend 2 years in prison or more for drug use, to be sent to a rehab farm for a year. Teach them how to quit and stay sober, and have them actually work while they are there.

So is it now lesson learned after countless African American communities were devastated by the importation of crack cocaine by the Reagan administration and subsequent shit that the Clinton administration pulled to warehouse (and create jobs) that are still filled at the cost of "other" citizens having their lives ruined?

Let me remind everyone that cocaine is also a drug that can be prescribed in some forms by physicians just like heroin, meth and the other drugs that are associated with the current (and newsworthy epidemic.)

OK, let's say you get exactly that (an effort to treat instead of warehousing) what then should happen to the countless others who are currently being housed because of their addictions? How do you account for the thousands of loss/unnecessary jobs during that transition?

 

[Sharkinva]

OK, let's say you get exactly that (an effort to treat instead of warehousing) what then should happen to the countless others who are currently being housed because of their addictions? How do you account for the thousands of loss/unnecessary jobs during that transition?

If you are going to go down that road, it has to be a societal shift in HOW we treat and deal with these people. For the people already warehoused, get them out, get them treatment. And for fork sake..give them REAL reasons NOT to go back to using. Most people that quit an addiction do so because they have a reason to change their behavior. And punishment, incarceration and such have proven to be horrible reasons for people to quite. So how about giving these people some damn HOPE instead of constantly reminding them of what a waste of skin they turned out to be??

And Im not directing that last few comments at you, but at our society at large.

 

[Stymietee]

If you are going to go down that road, it has to be a societal shift in HOW we treat and deal with these people. For the people already warehoused, get them out, get them treatment. And for fork sake..give them REAL reasons NOT to go back to using. Most people that quit an addiction do so because they have a reason to change their behavior. And punishment, incarceration and such have proven to be horrible reasons for people to quite. So how about giving these people some damn HOPE instead of constantly reminding them of what a waste of skin they turned out to be??

And Im not directing that last few comments at you, but at our society at large.

I agree completely, but if we're going to be honest 99.999% of them are there because there's an associated job attached to them being warehoused. We are #1 in the world in locking folks up, the last time that I checked that number was somewhere around 2.3 million people behind bars. What happens to the associated jobs if we transitioned the vast majority of that number from prison to rehab?

 

[gkekoa]

See I think as a society we do have a responsibility to at least TRY and help others. So yea i do think we should be trying to help people kick addiction. I also think if the Government is paying for rehab, this SHOULD be a perfect opportunity to regulate the cost of such treatment.

Personally I dont think you every really kick an addiction, you just switch to a new fix. Most of the baseball players who were addicted to chewing tobacco switched to sun flower seeds. Most of your AA members dont drink, but the new habit is AA meetings, coffee and cigarette. Most ex smokers are either vaping, or chewing lots and lots of gum, or become work out addicts.

At the end of the day, good health care should not simply be a privilege of the wealthy. And kicking addiction does come down to solid health care and support systems.

Why do we have a responsibility to people? I mean it is nice but not a responsibility.

The government should set the limits on labor?

 

[gkekoa]

Nation of laws.

If laws are violated, there is punishment.

Now we want to change the law because people refuse to follow it.

 

[Sharkinva]

I agree completely, but if we're going to be honest 99.999% of them are there because there's an associated job attached to them being warehoused. We are #1 in the world in locking folks up, the last time that I checked that number was somewhere around 2.3 million people behind bars. What happens to the associated jobs if we transitioned the vast majority of that number from prison to rehab?

Novel thought, make the prison workers rehab workers?? Make the self same prisons that are at best tax drains into production zones. Start making I dont know, clothes, shoes and other items in America that we currently import from China, India and Japan.

Fixing this system aint going to be easy or cheap. But in the long run it would be better for the country as a whole I think.

 

[Sharkinva]

Why do we have a responsibility to people? I mean it is nice but not a responsibility.

The government should set the limits on labor?

In that case, why do we have a responsibility to our relatives? Why do we need to help out a family member if they are in a tough spot?? The difference between blood and association sure. But in reality we have a responsibility BECAUSE we are this nation of laws as you are so quick to resort to.


You make laws and expect people to abide by them, does it not make sense to have a society where it is both easy and productive to abide by those laws. I know you are all about these people made a choice so fuckem. But I wonder if your mentality would change if it were your child, or wife that made a bad choice and ended up needing the kind of help and you were not in a position to give it.

As far as the government setting the limits on labor. The government SHOULD take an active role in ensuring that the people of this nation have the ability (aka the available jobs, adequate housing, affordable health care) So that every one can actually prosper. INstead our government is run by a bunch of rich fucks who's prime motivation is ensuring their own prosperity and the only time they give a rats ass about "The People" is come election time in most cases. And even then its more lip service than any thing else.

 

[gkekoa]

In that case, why do we have a responsibility to our relatives? Why do we need to help out a family member if they are in a tough spot?? The difference between blood and association sure. But in reality we have a responsibility BECAUSE we are this nation of laws as you are so quick to resort to.


You make laws and expect people to abide by them, does it not make sense to have a society where it is both easy and productive to abide by those laws. I know you are all about these people made a choice so fuckem. But I wonder if your mentality would change if it were your child, or wife that made a bad choice and ended up needing the kind of help and you were not in a position to give it.

As far as the government setting the limits on labor. The government SHOULD take an active role in ensuring that the people of this nation have the ability (aka the available jobs, adequate housing, affordable health care) So that every one can actually prosper. INstead our government is run by a bunch of rich fucks who's prime motivation is ensuring their own prosperity and the only time they give a rats ass about "The People" is come election time in most cases. And even then its more lip service than any thing else.

The difference is I have an influence on my family. I chose my wife and I chose to have a child. I have no responsibility to aunts and uncles or grandparents.

I agree our government is fucked up, corrupt, and selfish. I disagree about the role it SHOULD play. It should not make us equal. It should provide tools to give us a shot at success.

 

[Sharkinva]

I agree our government is fucked up, corrupt, and selfish. I disagree about the role it SHOULD play. It should not make us equal. It should provide tools to give us a shot at success.

And yet its doing the exact opposite.

And you and I and every red blooded American SHOULD have influence in our society. IN fact, by saying its not my problem, you are in fact influencing society to say.. enough of us dont care that fixing this problem isnt a priority.

 

[Stymietee]

Nation of laws.

If laws are violated, there is punishment.

Now we want to change the law because people refuse to follow it.

Dare I ask you and all good people of "faith", what good are laws when they unnecessarily destroy the people?

Shouldn't we spend every moment of our lives honoring those that kept this country going by fighting to improve it, by, fighting to improve it further?

 

[Sharkinva]

Dare I ask you and all good people of "faith", what good are laws when they unnecessarily destroy the people?

Shouldn't we spend every moment of our lives honoring those that kept this country going by fighting to improve it, by, fighting to improve it further?

Come on Sty, this is America... there are no LAWS designed to destroy the people. That never happens.