Please, no more CK7 vs. Smith debates

[imac_21]

I was just putting the game into perspective. Kaep handled his first road game in a hostile situation well. He led 2 good touchdown scoring drives and a great drive that took a ton of time off the clock late in the game.

Were those things Alex couldn't do? No.
Does it mean Alex should start? No.

Both QB's have their strengths and ways of handling things. I think we could have won today with either of them because the star of the game was the Defense getting us 14 points.

Remember where the game was when Brooks picked off Brees and took it back for a TD. It was shortly after Ginn fumbled the punt and the Saints went up 14-7. 2 possessions later the Saints picked off Kaep at their own 44 yard line. The Saints were in a position to add 3 maybe 7 points or at least run out the rest of the clock and go into half time with a 7 point lead. Instead Brooks picks off Brees and takes it back for 7 points and the game was tied at half time. That was by far the play of the game.

Already said this but will say it again. I wanted us to draft Kaep and thought he was a better prospect than Locker, Ponder, Dalton, and Gabbert. I would have taken Newton ahead of him but no one else.

This would have been one of Alex's best games under Harbaugh. Please stop treating it as if it were routine for him.

As for the 14 points off defense,
a. those were possessions where Kaep never got a chance to lead the team to a score. Please don't punish him for that.
b. you say we wouldn't have won without those, do you discount the Ginn fumble as well?

Also, how serious was the offense about moving the ball in the 4th quarter? Kaep threw one pass in the last 8:30.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Imac, Smith's average game this year (let's call it 8 1/2 games the sample size, though Kap had plenty of snaps during that span):

17.88 for 25.52 for 203 yards.

Kap today 16 for 25 for 231 yards.

Pretty close. Kap more yards, but the turnover to go with it. Kap is obviously the better option going forward, I'm not saying Smith should be in there, but the idea this game was so much better than Smith I think is silly. You're gonna see more big plays, and more bad plays, and overall I think it will come close to evening out.

Nobody said this game was so much better than anything Alex Smith did. The point was that Kaepernick can do everything that Alex did and more.

 

[imac_21]

Imac, Smith's average game this year (let's call it 8 1/2 games the sample size, though Kap had plenty of snaps during that span):

17.88 for 25.52 for 203 yards.

Kap today 16 for 25 for 231 yards.

Pretty close. Kap more yards, but the turnover to go with it. Kap is obviously the better option going forward, I'm not saying Smith should be in there, but the idea this game was so much better than Smith I think is silly. You're gonna see more big plays, and more bad plays, and overall I think it will come close to evening out.

Sorry, I missed where you included sacks taken. One of the chief complaints about Smith here is how many unnecessary sacks he takes.

To say that this game was an average game for Smith is silly. Kaep accounted for two TDs, threw for more yards (despite less attempts than Smith averages, and well, I'm going to assume you forgot about rushing numbers, not that you neglected them.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Well, I don't know if this is what anyone meant... but I feel pretty confident that if Smith had that type of statistical game with the defense scoring 14... people would be taking him to task for his production.

I know because, I've seen that played out plenty of times where if the defense scores people actually criticize Smith for that...

It isn't about the production, it's about how the production came. Alex Smith's production comes from underneath routes. Colin Kaepernick showed great poise in the pocket and ad-lib ability that Alex Smith rarely shows.

If Alex Smith shows play-making ability and great pocket presence and is clearly the focal point of the offense, I wouldn't care if he threw for 190 yards or 400. I don't care about stats, I care about how much the QB is doing to help the team win. I think CK7 helps the players around much more than Alex. Simple as that.

 

[Flyingiguana]

Of course. Joe Montana was effective because his uncanny pocket presence, his ability to make post-snap reads in a split-second, and his elite accuracy on all levels of the field.

In two games Kaepernick has shown as much pocket poise and maneuverability as Alex Smith has ever did. He's shown better improvisational ability, a better arm, better mentality at attack defenses, and a different threat in the redzone.

i will fully agree with u on what kap brings over smith. but smith gets a raw deal by a lot of fans who seem to have problems getting over how bad things have been before harbaugh was here and can't be objective.

 

[clyde_carbon]

i will fully agree with u on what kap brings over smith. but smith gets a raw deal by a lot of fans who seem to have problems getting over how bad things have been before harbaugh was here and can't be objective.

I don't think calling Alex Smith a mediocre QB is a raw deal.

 

[Kinzu]

This would have been one of Alex's best games under Harbaugh. Please stop treating it as if it were routine for him.

As for the 14 points off defense,
a. those were possessions where Kaep never got a chance to lead the team to a score. Please don't punish him for that.
b. you say we wouldn't have won without those, do you discount the Ginn fumble as well?

Also, how serious was the offense about moving the ball in the 4th quarter? Kaep threw one pass in the last 8:30.

A. no duh he never got the chance because the D took it all the way. Would you rather have seen the Saints punt it away and watch our offense have to drive the field for those points? If they don't take those all the way there is a good chance we end up settling for 3 points at best. Now you're the one trying down play things to make a QB look good if you don't think the Defense won this game. Kaep didn't lose the game and made enough plays to win it. He had some drops but he also had some receivers make some great catches for him (like Walker.... stone hands Walker of all people.) He also benefited from a few good runs after the catch and a Randy Moss bailing him out of what should been his 2nd Interception.

B. I mentioned the Ginn fumble..... in the post you quoted The fact is Kaep's drive after that fumble by Ginn resulted in a Punt followed by an interception that put the Saints in a position to get more points right before half-time. Brooks however made the play of the game and picked off Brees and took it all the way to tie the game at the half. You really think the game plays out the same way if the Saints go into half-time up 21-7 or 17-7?

 

[imac_21]

A. no duh he never got the chance because the D took it all the way. Would you rather have seen the Saints punt it away and watch our offense have to drive the field for those points? If they don't take those all the way there is a good chance we end up settling for 3 points at best. Now you're the one trying down play things to make a QB look good if you don't think the Defense won this game.

Yeah, I'm saying the defense didn't win this game. GTFOH. You're punishing Kaepernick in your evaluation of him today because the defense played great. You don't think that's a little backwards?

B. I mentioned the Ginn fumble..... in the post you quoted The fact is Kaep's drive after that fumble by Ginn resulted in a Punt followed by an interception that put the Saints in a position to get more points right before half-time. Brooks however made the play of the game and picked off Brees and took it all the way to tie the game at the half. You really think the game plays out the same way if the Saints go into half-time up 21-7 or 17-7?

Wow. You're wanting to take points off the board to show Kaep's struggles AND you want to give the Saints another score?

I'm already tired of the Kaepernick haters.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

To say that this game was an average game for Smith is silly

Factor in that this is arguably the worst pass defense in the league in the Saints. Kap had a good game, very good considering its his 2nd start and the difficulties of the dome, and I think Smith would have had good success against them too.

 

[MHSL82]

This would have been one of Alex's best games under Harbaugh. Please stop treating it as if it were routine for him.

As for the 14 points off defense,
a. those were possessions where Kaep never got a chance to lead the team to a score. Please don't punish him for that.
b. you say we wouldn't have won without those, do you discount the Ginn fumble as well?

Also, how serious was the offense about moving the ball in the 4th quarter? Kaep threw one pass in the last 8:30.

I agree with your point that this output would have been one of Alex's best games. I also think that Kaep is the way to go and this game was great. But, these things you pick on happens with Smith and every other QB who isn't established.

First, the claim by one was that Alex would have won this game too - that doesn't mean the same production. Two different styles of games that both would have benefited from the defense. I don't agree with the guy saying that he would have gotten the same numbers, but perhaps he could, no quarantee there. It definitely wouldn't have been impressive. Maybe we would have had more runs or short passes that would avoid the sack like Kaep used his feet. Smith would definitely have taken sacks today, I just can't say the game would be the same, add on sacks, therefore, Smith would lose or not produce something.

Also, for example, Alex was punished for the two possessions in which he didn't have in the Giants game last year. At the very least, the Niners would have had the ball longer, even if we went three and out, giving the Giants less time, AND the Giants would have farther to go and would need to use the clock to score. But he was punished for that, like all QBs are, based on some things that weren't in his control. So, I agree that people cannot say that Kaep would not have won but for the two INT sixes, but it's used against all unestablished QBs.

I do agree, though, in this specific case though that there was some fishing going on to discredit Kaep.

 

[tomikcon1971]

For those into the ESPN QB number,

@espn_nfcwest: Colin Kaepernick 72.3 Total QBR against Saints. Drew Brees 33.0.

 

[mem49er]

Maybe people are still shell-shocked from the trolls at the ESPN boards, but this is just nuts.

I think this is at least partially the reason.

 

[CalamityX11]

Forgive me, Clyde, but you know by making another thread for it, it will make for one more debate. Probably unavoidable even if you hadn't, though. Just saying.

I was going to say the same thing but in a more Calamity like way

 

[MHSL82]

I think this is at least partially the reason.

I think some people are just very sensitive people or can relate. I know some fans of Smith who a big part of it is rooting for the good guy, the underdog, etc. Depending on how strong those sentiments are, add on some from ESPN and elsewhere, people will over-compensate.

I was/am a Smith supporter, but I've always said I would be for anyone who was our QB and I'd be at peace with whoever replaced him if the replacer was better, especially if Smith was playing his best. I think I can safely say that all of those apply here, so I'm happy. Troy Smith, for example, didn't and so I was upset with that benching, plus people who jumped on his bandwagon and wanted to downgrade Smith more than necessary. Wouldn't say those people were among the people here. (Obviously, this board wasn't this active then.)

 

[Kinzu]

Where have I said I hate Kaep? I've praised the guy and said he was the 2nd best QB in his draft class.

And you're the one that seemingly would rather take the points off the board that the D scored to better give Kaep a chance to be responsible for them.

I've only praised Kaep for a job well done today considering the crowd and the stadium. You guys are jumping on me because I won't declare it a great performance or say that Kaep is the reason we won the game or that he played so much better than Alex ever could have.

The offense did not exactly run up and down the field all game. We had 3 good drives that resulted in 17 points. The rest of them were pretty forgettable ending in punts or turnovers until the 4th quarter were they ended in Aker missed FG's. The 2 Aker misses though are mostly not worth counting though. One of them came as the result of us not being able to move the football after forcing the Saints to turn it over downs. The other was a decent drive but with a 10 point lead we were just running down the clock.

 

[imac_21]

Where have I said I hate Kaep? I've praised the guy and said he was the 2nd best QB in his draft class.

And you're the one that seemingly would rather take the points off the board that the D scored to better give Kaep a chance to be responsible for them.

I've only praised Kaep for a job well done today considering the crowd and the stadium. You guys are jumping on me because I won't declare it a great performance or say that Kaep is the reason we won the game or that he played so much better than Alex ever could have.

The offense did not exactly run up and down the field all game. We had 3 good drives that resulted in 17 points. The rest of them were pretty forgettable ending in punts or turnovers until the 4th quarter were they ended in Aker missed FG's. The 2 Aker misses though are mostly not worth counting though. One of them came as the result of us not being able to move the football after forcing the Saints to turn it over downs. The other was a decent drive but with a 10 point lead we were just running down the clock.

I didn't say anything about taking points off the board. I said you can't hold the defensive scores against Kaep. We "weren't able to move the football after forcing the Saints to turn it over on downs"? How hard were we trying to move the football?

No has said Kaep won the game, no one said he had a game that Alex could never have. People have said he can do things that Alex will never be able to (those are two distinct comments, don't mix them up).

Are you seriously going to deny being a Kaep hater in the same post where you make comments that praise him up, simply so you can argue them?

 

[MHSL82]

The offense did not exactly run up and down the field all game. We had 3 good drives that resulted in 17 points. The rest of them were pretty forgettable ending in punts or turnovers until the 4th quarter were they ended in Aker missed FG's. The 2 Aker misses though are mostly not worth counting though. One of them came as the result of us not being able to move the football after forcing the Saints to turn it over downs. The other was a decent drive but with a 10 point lead we were just running down the clock.

This just says to me that there is room to improve. I never got the impetus for anyone to downgrade any of our players performances. In the style of Harbaugh: "I don't see the advantage for our players or our team to discredit any Niners' play."

After the Cardinals game, I didn't like the motivation to downgrade Smith's game, despite me realizing that that was a receivers' game. The point was there, but it didn't feel right to be upset about a Niner getting credit. Just add credit, don't take away. "Man the defense was awesome" can be said without mentioning Kaep.

 

[Kinzu]

I didn't say anything about taking points off the board. I said you can't hold the defensive scores against Kaep. We "weren't able to move the football after forcing the Saints to turn it over on downs"? How hard were we trying to move the football?

No has said Kaep won the game, no one said he had a game that Alex could never have. People have said he can do things that Alex will never be able to (those are two distinct comments, don't mix them up).

Are you seriously going to deny being a Kaep hater in the same post where you make comments that praise him up, simply so you can argue them?

I just think it's absurd for anyone to think he had a great game. It's the same old story it has been for years. Alex has a great game and everyone wants to down play it. Alex wins and it's because of Gore or the Defense. We rarely ever as a group agree on him having a good game.

Any QB in a 49ers jersey though wins a game not named Alex and so many want to hail them as being the sole reason for our success. Kaep got the win today thanks to the Defense. That's not trying to down play what he did it's just the fact of what happened. Is it so wrong to say that? Is it only ok to say that if Alex is the QB?

I clearly stated in my first post after the game I thought what Kaep did today was impressive considering the situation he was up against, but I'm apparently a Kaep hater for wanting to give the defense credit for the win.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Factor in that this is arguably the worst pass defense in the league in the Saints. Kap had a good game, very good considering its his 2nd start and the difficulties of the dome, and I think Smith would have had good success against them too.

I think Smith could've probably posted the same type of numbers, but I doubt he would've made as many impact plays and 3rd down conversions.

 

[clyde_carbon]

I just think it's absurd for anyone to think he had a great game. It's the same old story it has been for years. Alex has a great game and everyone wants to down play it. Alex wins and it's because of Gore or the Defense. We rarely ever as a group agree on him having a good game.

If Kaepernick didn't have a great game today, then Alex Smith didn't have a great game against the Cardinals, Lions, and Bills. CK made more impact throws last week against the Bears Smith did in all three of those games.

Any QB in a 49ers jersey though wins a game not named Alex and so many want to hail them as being the sole reason for our success. Kaep got the win today thanks to the Defense. That's not trying to down play what he did it's just the fact of what happened. Is it so wrong to say that? Is it only ok to say that if Alex is the QB?

Alex Smith can thank the defense and running game for most of his wins, too.

I clearly stated in my first post after the game I thought what Kaep did today was impressive considering the situation he was up against, but I'm apparently a Kaep hater for wanting to give the defense credit for the win.

You had no problem calling other people Alex Smith haters when they tried to do the same thing to Alex Smith.