Off Season Moves/News/Rumors/Discussion Thread

[tzill]

To paraphrase what I believe filo said somewhere - I don't give a shit about their payroll number - they fucked up royale with cheese signing Rowand and Zito and they should write those off those losses (which they are), understand that they are one time fuckups, make sure they are only one time fuckups, and disregard those costs when it comes to the payroll.

If the payroll is $130million but $13 is playing with himself in Florida and $17 is riding an 82 mph unicorn then you're really only trotting out a $100million roster with a $30million albatross.

If they had signed Beltran for $13 they could have sucked it up for this season and been back to a normal payroll next season with only a $17million albatross.

I understand all the reasoning against this, and i personally don't give a shit. They have plenty of money and signing Beltran would have improved our chances of getting back to the playoffs and winning a WS over the next couple of seasons (which gets you more money you fuckin dopes).

Instead we get Melky. And fucking Zito is our #5.

Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be stressing this, but everybody knows what we have in this team, so potentially frittering it away because of previous horseshit signings is horseshit.

Who pooped in my cereal? Nobody that's who. I didn't have any cuz my wife left the milk out. But what am I gonna do wait til next week to buy some more milk? Eat my honey bunches of oats with sour milk? Fuck that I have the money I'm gonna go buy some more goddamn milk eat my fucking honey bunches of oats and have a Merry fucking Christmas.

There are a number of assumptions here which need to be clarified:

1. That "one time fuckups" shouldn't count as payroll. The money is real, and it is going to be paid. It's payroll.
2. Extending the payroll to $145 this year, and then back down to $130MM next year is a viable biz strategy. If we had signed CarBel, and then suffered injuries to, say, Timmy, Franchez and CarBel and missed the playoffs -- how receptive would you or the rest of the fanbase be to reducing the payroll next year? I'm guessing you'd be pissed that they don't raise it to $160MM to give us a "better shot at making the playoffs." Simply put, it's pretty damn hard to justify a reduction/non-expansion in payroll when you're selling out the stadium.
3. That "one time fuckups" are correctable and should never again happen. What if CarBel is chronically injured and plays 50 games in the next two years? Then HIS contract becomes another "one time fuckup" that I would assume you think ownership would need to "suck up" next year. "One time fuckups" are part of doing business as a GM. I'll lay the Zito contract aside, as that was an ownership fuckup by all accounts and not SabeySabes'. There are going to be RoRo's, there are going to be Marvin Benards, and occasionally there are going to be Edgardo Alfonsos. There are also going to be 2010 Aubrey Huffs, PTMFBs, and 2011 Ryan Vogelsongs. Comes with the territory as GM. What SabeySabes seems to be doing is limiting his downside by refusing to give out any more RoRo length contracts to FAs. By definition, that means we're going to miss out on the Prince Fielders and Jose Reyeses, but that's an acceptable opportunity loss for the gain of not having a Zito or RoRo contract strangling the budget.
4. You haven't even opened up the 2012 Giants milk...you've no idea if it's sour or not. But, feel free to get some advance bitching in. You're a good fan, you've earned the right....unlike some pantshitters I could name.

Chappy Channukah

 

[tzill]

Then why did you keep thinking we'd get him? I knew we weren't going to but I thought it was because he was getting like 3 yrs and $45 mil from the Red Sox, not 2/26 in the NL.

'Owe' isn't the word for it, but they do owe their fans every attempt to keep winning, especially with this core of pitching that won't be here forever. None of us want them to spend money just to spend it, but if there's one glaring need and a reasonably priced piece to fill it, we have the right to want that piece.

Now, as always, I realize we aren't on the phones with Sabean and the agents for these players, and filos point was that we'd have had to pay much more to get him so I'm not storming the barricades or anything. But I'm definitely bummed he signed for so little, and not with us. It's valid.

SF's point is good too: for 2010 to happen again we are going to need some surprises to the good side, like good health, Belt hitting well, Huff rebounding, Pagan and Cabrera being productive, etc. If those happen, we don't need Beltran at all.

I wasn't "thinking we'd get him." I was HOPING we'd get him. The budget number is apparently firm. There are always going to be "reasonably priced pieces," but the ownership has decided that they want to make money and giving SabeySabes a $130MM payroll is a pretty damn reasonable "try to win" IMO.

All of this is to say that I've got no problem with "wanting" FAs. Hell, you guys all know I've got a fever. But, I understand that we have a firm budget. What I want to focus on is what we HAVE (the best pitching staff in the majors, the best ballpark in the world, full houses every game, and a top five budget of $130MM) and not on what we DON'T (big name FA hitter, a bruising 3/4/5, and a top 3 budget). But I'm a glass half full of non sour milk kind of guy....and this is the time of miracles, so fuck all you goyim anyway!

 

[msgkings322]

There are a number of assumptions here which need to be clarified:

1. That "one time fuckups" shouldn't count as payroll. The money is real, and it is going to be paid. It's payroll.
2. Extending the payroll to $145 this year, and then back down to $130MM next year is a viable biz strategy. If we had signed CarBel, and then suffered injuries to, say, Timmy, Franchez and CarBel and missed the playoffs -- how receptive would you or the rest of the fanbase be to reducing the payroll next year? I'm guessing you'd be pissed that they don't raise it to $160MM to give us a "better shot at making the playoffs." Simply put, it's pretty damn hard to justify a reduction/non-expansion in payroll when you're selling out the stadium.
3. That "one time fuckups" are correctable and should never again happen. What if CarBel is chronically injured and plays 50 games in the next two years? Then HIS contract becomes another "one time fuckup" that I would assume you think ownership would need to "suck up" next year. "One time fuckups" are part of doing business as a GM. I'll lay the Zito contract aside, as that was an ownership fuckup by all accounts and not SabeySabes'. There are going to be RoRo's, there are going to be Marvin Benards, and occasionally there are going to be Edgardo Alfonsos. There are also going to be 2010 Aubrey Huffs, PTMFBs, and 2011 Ryan Vogelsongs. Comes with the territory as GM. What SabeySabes seems to be doing is limiting his downside by refusing to give out any more RoRo length contracts to FAs. By definition, that means we're going to miss out on the Prince Fielders and Jose Reyeses, but that's an acceptable opportunity loss for the gain of not having a Zito or RoRo contract strangling the budget.
4. You haven't even opened up the 2012 Giants milk...you've no idea if it's sour or not. But, feel free to get some advance bitching in. You're a good fan, you've earned the right....unlike some pantshitters I could name.

Chappy Channukah

Decent points, but as for #3, I agree 100% he's limiting downside by not signing any more long term RoRo style contracts. But Beltran could've been had for 2 years. Just sayin'.

 

[msgkings322]

I wasn't "thinking we'd get him." I was HOPING we'd get him. The budget number is apparently firm. There are always going to be "reasonably priced pieces," but the ownership has decided that they want to make money and giving SabeySabes a $130MM payroll is a pretty damn reasonable "try to win" IMO.

All of this is to say that I've got no problem with "wanting" FAs. Hell, you guys all know I've got a fever. But, I understand that we have a firm budget. What I want to focus on is what we HAVE (the best pitching staff in the majors, the best ballpark in the world, full houses every game, and a top five budget of $130MM) and not on what we DON'T (big name FA hitter, a bruising 3/4/5, and a top 3 budget). But I'm a glass half full of non sour milk kind of guy....and this is the time of miracles, so fuck all you goyim anyway!

Hey I'm glass half full of good milk too, I said if Pagan, Cabrera, Belt etc all do their thing we won't need CarBel. But getting him would've made the glass all the way full.

I predict with this team, if we stay reasonably healthy, we'll win 92 games and have a 50% shot at the division...and we'll see plenty of milky GIFs.

Also, not a goyim here!
חנוכה שמח

 

[SFGRTB]

Giants are smart, and I like the point you brought up tzill about payroll. In fact, the idea that fans are angry we didn't raise it more already shows, since 2008, the payroll has raised by 6 million to 14 million to 22 million to another 12 million this year. Payroll was just 76 million back in 2008, the Giants have never been above 100 million until 2011.

Am I mad that they couldn't fess up a little extra dough for Beltran, yes. If everything went relatively well injury wise, he probably would've put us over the top. But I understand that Rowand and Zito and the 19 (or 15) million dollar stadium tax are holding us back about 50 million dollars. Yes, this is a big market team and they have the sellouts and revenue and all, but this is uncharted territory for them, it will only be the second time ever exceeding 100 million dollars.

But they know what they are doing. Sabean is a very smart man and most of his bone-head moves are made out of pressure. If we can lockup the young core of pitching, we have some very good hitting prospects coming because of very very strong drafts recently.

 

[iHATEdodgers]

There are a number of assumptions here which need to be clarified:

1. That "one time fuckups" shouldn't count as payroll. The money is real, and it is going to be paid. It's payroll.
2. Extending the payroll to $145 this year, and then back down to $130MM next year is a viable biz strategy. If we had signed CarBel, and then suffered injuries to, say, Timmy, Franchez and CarBel and missed the playoffs -- how receptive would you or the rest of the fanbase be to reducing the payroll next year? I'm guessing you'd be pissed that they don't raise it to $160MM to give us a "better shot at making the playoffs." Simply put, it's pretty damn hard to justify a reduction/non-expansion in payroll when you're selling out the stadium.
3. That "one time fuckups" are correctable and should never again happen. What if CarBel is chronically injured and plays 50 games in the next two years? Then HIS contract becomes another "one time fuckup" that I would assume you think ownership would need to "suck up" next year. "One time fuckups" are part of doing business as a GM. I'll lay the Zito contract aside, as that was an ownership fuckup by all accounts and not SabeySabes'. There are going to be RoRo's, there are going to be Marvin Benards, and occasionally there are going to be Edgardo Alfonsos. There are also going to be 2010 Aubrey Huffs, PTMFBs, and 2011 Ryan Vogelsongs. Comes with the territory as GM. What SabeySabes seems to be doing is limiting his downside by refusing to give out any more RoRo length contracts to FAs. By definition, that means we're going to miss out on the Prince Fielders and Jose Reyeses, but that's an acceptable opportunity loss for the gain of not having a Zito or RoRo contract strangling the budget.
4. You haven't even opened up the 2012 Giants milk...you've no idea if it's sour or not. But, feel free to get some advance bitching in. You're a good fan, you've earned the right....unlike some pantshitters I could name.

Chappy Channukah

First of all let me point out that I think with the return of Posey and a return to form of Huff and the addition of Pagan and despite the departure of Ramirez and the now necessary reliance upon fucking Zito to be our #5 I think this team has the ability to go deep into the playoffs. I've already said as much somewhere around here.

But hey man I'm fucking off at work :bathbaby: you want me to do an honest days work on Christmas Eve's Eve? And honestly it's fucking horseshit that they didn't offer CarBel 2 years $25mil or evn $35mil if 2 years was all he could get (filo has a very good point in the other thread though so who knows).

Ok...

1) It's payroll yes. I didn't say it wasn't I said they should disregard it just this once because this version of our team has a chance to be a dynasty.

2) "Extending the payroll to $145 this year, and then back down to $130MM next year is a viable biz strategy." Indeed it is and it's all I'm asking for which is what I meant when I said "Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be stressing this, but everybody knows what we have in this team, so potentially frittering it away because of previous horseshit signings is horseshit." So you guessed wrong I wouldn't be pissed if it was only a one time thing, accordingly I think I've justified the one time expansion of the payroll.

3) CarBel getting injured would not be a fuckup it would be an injury, badluck shitty, call it what you want but it would not have been a fuckup. Signing Rowand was a fuckup colossal, and Zito goes without saying - each from the moment of signage. Luckily we somehow defeated the albatross in 2010! Suck it albatross! Huff and Vogelsong came cheap no comparision to Rowand or Zito in any way.

4)Well I already responded to this above. And although I do think our Melky is going to be sour we still have a decent shot at making some noise. Would have been easier to win with a CarBel eh, but shit.

 

[tzill]

Decent points, but as for #3, I agree 100% he's limiting downside by not signing any more long term RoRo style contracts. But Beltran could've been had for 2 years. Just sayin'.

But you miss the point....CarBel was not affordable BECAUSE of RoRo..and Zito. SabeySabes is putting himself in position to get future CarBels by eliminating long term, big money contracts.

And again, who's to say that CarBel's contract (which probably would've been more like 30/2) wouldn't be Huffesque in 2013?

 

[tzill]

First of all let me point out that I think with the return of Posey and a return to form of Huff and the addition of Pagan and despite the departure of Ramirez and the now necessary reliance upon fucking Zito to be our #5 I think this team has the ability to go deep into the playoffs. I've already said as much somewhere around here.

But hey man I'm fucking off at work :bathbaby: you want me to do an honest days work on Christmas Eve's Eve? And honestly it's fucking horseshit that they didn't offer CarBel 2 years $25mil or evn $35mil if 2 years was all he could get (filo has a very good point in the other thread though so who knows).

Ok...

1) It's payroll yes. I didn't say it wasn't I said they should disregard it just this once because this version of our team has a chance to be a dynasty.

2) "Extending the payroll to $145 this year, and then back down to $130MM next year is a viable biz strategy." Indeed it is and it's all I'm asking for which is what I meant when I said "Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be stressing this, but everybody knows what we have in this team, so potentially frittering it away because of previous horseshit signings is horseshit." So you guessed wrong I wouldn't be pissed if it was only a one time thing, accordingly I think I've justified the one time expansion of the payroll.

3) CarBel getting injured would not be a fuckup it would be an injury, badluck shitty, call it what you want but it would not have been a fuckup. Signing Rowand was a fuckup colossal, and Zito goes without saying - each from the moment of signage. Luckily we somehow defeated the albatross in 2010! Suck it albatross! Huff and Vogelsong came cheap no comparision to Rowand or Zito in any way.

4)Well I already responded to this above. And although I do think our Melky is going to be sour we still have a decent shot at making some noise. Would have been easier to win with a CarBel eh, but shit.

#2 -- YOU may not be pissed at reducing the payroll down to $130 from $145, but I guaranfuckingTEE you the vast majority of the lunatic fringe would be crying like little Marcus Nolan bitches. And as a PR move, that could really hurt marketing.

I fucking named those two dipshits...:arg:

 

[iHATEdodgers]

#2 -- YOU may not be pissed at reducing the payroll down to $130 from $145, but I guaranfuckingTEE you the vast majority of the lunatic fringe would be crying like little Marcus Nolan bitches. And as a PR move, that could really hurt marketing.

I fucking named those two dipshits...:arg:

Heheheh. Well I guarantee that you're probably correct about that much. But I don't give a shit about those dumb bastards and the front office shouldn't either. They should be worried about winning Titles and making money - in that order, and like I said winning Titles makes money so... Anyway it's all moot. The front office pussed out and didn't go for the gold - I still like our chances though.

 

[Stokes1931]

Niners win!

Cleanup alert on the 49er board. Cleanup alert on the 49er board. There is a huge load of shat all over the place, and lots of whine.

There wasn't this much excrement when they were 3-12, but now they are 12-3. Guys calling the game "over" with the 49ers still ahead and 6 minutes left in the game.

This board is so great by comparison.

 

[tzill]

Niners win!

Cleanup alert on the 49er board. Cleanup alert on the 49er board. There is a huge load of shat all over the place, and lots of whine.

There wasn't this much excrement when they were 3-12, but now they are 12-3. Guys calling the game "over" with the 49ers still ahead and 6 minutes left in the game.

This board is so great by comparison.

Why, whoever could it be filling diaper loads?

:arg:

 

[nateistheshi]

This would be a very savvy business move:
Extension Candidate: Madison Bumgarner: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

 

[tzill]

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the offseason, from Grant at MCC:

I wasn't expecting Fielder or Reyes. I was hoping for Beltran, but I certainly wasn't expecting him back. Here's the difference between those players and Cain: I am 100%, no-foolin' expecting a Cain extension before the season starts. The front office and ownership essentially promised us as much when explaining why they couldn't pay Beltran, Reyes, Furcal, Alex Gonzalez, the other Alex Gonzalez, or either Jeff D'Amico.

Cain. Give us Cain. This offseason should be whapped on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper. Bad offseason! Bad! But here's hoping that the Giants can at least scrape some of the bad feelings on the side of the curb.

 

[Heathbar012]

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the offseason, from Grant at MCC:

I wasn't expecting Fielder or Reyes. I was hoping for Beltran, but I certainly wasn't expecting him back. Here's the difference between those players and Cain: I am 100%, no-foolin' expecting a Cain extension before the season starts. The front office and ownership essentially promised us as much when explaining why they couldn't pay Beltran, Reyes, Furcal, Alex Gonzalez, the other Alex Gonzalez, or either Jeff D'Amico.

Cain. Give us Cain. This offseason should be whapped on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper. Bad offseason! Bad! But here's hoping that the Giants can at least scrape some of the bad feelings on the side of the curb.

Dude is a first ballot Giants Board Posting Hall of Famer. No question.

 

[msgkings322]

In other news, Mark DeRosa signed with the Nats.

Did we plan on having him on our bench? Do we care?

 

[SFGRTB]

Brings up a discussion, if the Giants can't reach an extension before spring training (which I fully expect to happen, or else), do they trade him before the deadline and get value in return or do they go through the SportsHoopla of trying to retain him as a free agent?

Previous deals of this nature haven't worked out as well though (Using Sabathia, Lee, Santana and Peavy as examples). No player acquired in any of those deals has had anything close to the impact of the player they were traded for. But, do we risk losing Cain for nothing?

Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that, but if it does, would you move Cain at the deadline or hope to re-sign him in the offseason?

 

[Mays-Fan]

In other news, Mark DeRosa signed with the Nats.

Did we plan on having him on our bench? Do we care?

While I think I would have liked him, if he got hurt and sukked yet again, it really would have been intolerably embarrassing for Sabes to have that happen.

Maybe Ryan Theriot?

 

[Heathbar012]

While I think I would have liked him, if he got hurt and sukked yet again, it really would have been intolerably embarrassing for Sabes to have that happen.

Maybe Ryan Theriot?

I would like that pick up much better than DeRosa. If he regains some pop in that wrist, good for him. He has a ring and a ton of money, so the rest of what little career he has left is gravy. Me? I'd stay at home with my hot wife, but to each his own.

 

[SFGRTB]

From a winning standpoint, Theriot makes some sense. But from a fan standpoint, I really want to see Omar Vizquel come back

 

[Heathbar012]

Brings up a discussion, if the Giants can't reach an extension before spring training (which I fully expect to happen, or else), do they trade him before the deadline and get value in return or do they go through the SportsHoopla of trying to retain him as a free agent?

Previous deals of this nature haven't worked out as well though (Using Sabathia, Lee, Santana and Peavy as examples). No player acquired in any of those deals has had anything close to the impact of the player they were traded for. But, do we risk losing Cain for nothing?

Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that, but if it does, would you move Cain at the deadline or hope to re-sign him in the offseason?

It depends on how well he is pitching around the deadline, and what teams he would be willing to "re-up" with. Too many variables. I'm with you to lock him up. If it doesn't happen, other analysis can take place. I generally don't favor bargaining from weakness, but sometimes it is forced on you. It would be forced on Sabean if he doesn't get an extension done before June.