NBA OFF TOPIC THREAD

[Heatles84]

What do you know about the candidate?

I know he's a solid DC and a decent recruiter. How does that translate to being a HC?

 

[fightinfunbags]

Problem is, you have a guy that's learning how to be a HC on the fly at a blue blood program at Notre Dame. Starting your first HC gig right after Brian Kelly is not going to be ideal, at all. We're going through that with Manny Diaz at the moment, and after 3 years is likely on his way out. It's very rare that a guy who's first HC job is at a Power 5 program and that it works out.

But Freeman isn’t Manny Diaz. No offense but that guy just isn’t a good coach.
Dabo’s first gig was Clemson
Smart’s first gig was Georgia
Day’s first gig was OSU
Riley’s first gig was Oklahoma

If you can coach, you can coach. In 10 months time Freeman has already had a huge impact on recruiting. Worst case scenario is ND needs to move on in 3 years with a talented roster to sell to another candidate. ND is a unique job and when you have a fit who gets it there, I think it’s worth taking the chance. Who do you think should have been the guy?

 

[fightinfunbags]

I know he's a solid DC and a decent recruiter. How does that translate to being a HC?

A successful coach?

 

[Heatles84]

For me, defense is a Jimmy’s and Joes things more than scheme.

It's both. Scheme can flat out ruin your team. Golden tried running a 3-4 in Miami, where speed is more of a thing down in South Florida and locally, we don't produce NTs that are required to run an effective 3-4. It resulted in a defense that was the very definition of break but don't bend. Manny Diaz runs a defense that doesn't tackle in practice much, and we now are one of the worst tackling teams in the nation. Couple that with his delayed blitzes and how he handles DL, it often leads our LBs on an island.

Point being - yes, you want talent on your defense. But a scheme can ruin you if it's not tailored to your personnel.

 

[trojanfan12]

This is the new way of CFB. People have to accept it. OU is in the low right now with how Riley left; USC is at the high.

There's really no good way to leave. Can you imagine if halfway through the year, Riley announced that he was interviewing with and was going to accept a job with USC at the end of the season? I guarantee you it would be bad, and Riley would be in a very uncomfortable situation.

Yep, that's been my point. He blows up his current and future recruiting classes at OU, players enter the transfer portal and then...things don't work out with USC...he would have basically crippled his current program and set himself up to be fired in 2 years because "there's a right way to do it".

Makes zero sense.

 

[fightinfunbags]

It's both. Scheme can flat out ruin your team. Golden tried running a 3-4 in Miami, where speed is more of a thing down in South Florida and locally, we don't produce NTs that are required to run an effective 3-4. It resulted in a defense that was the very definition of break but don't bend. Manny Diaz runs a defense that doesn't tackle in practice much, and we now are one of the worst tackling teams in the nation. Couple that with his delayed blitzes and how he handles DL, it often leads our LBs on an island.

Point being - yes, you want talent on your defense. But a scheme can ruin you if it's not tailored to your personnel.

No offense man, but stop using Miami as some point of comparison. That program has been a mess for quite some time.

 

[Heatles84]

But Freeman isn’t Manny Diaz. No offense but that guy just isn’t a good coach.
Dabo’s first gig was Clemson
Smart’s first gig was Georgia
Day’s first gig was OSU
Riley’s first gig was Oklahoma

If you can coach, you can coach. In 10 months time Freeman has already had a huge impact on recruiting. Worst case scenario is ND needs to move on in 3 years with a talented roster to sell to another candidate. ND is a unique job and when you have a fit who gets it there, I think it’s worth taking the chance. Who do you think should have been the guy?

Dabo - He's a rare entity. And holy crap he was on the verge of being fired before he broke through with Watson.
Smart - Was under the greatest college coach of all-time for over a decade. UGA also throws heavy bags at recruits more than anyone.
Day - Honestly, jury's still out on him. Doesn't hurt that you take over a program that Urban Meyer left. I'm curious what Ohio State looks like in year 4/5 of his tenure. But Ohio State is one of the few programs that can recruit itself annually into a top 10 class.
Riley - Again, took over for Bob Stoops and is a rare entity in itself.

Having said that, the schools you listed also don't have the academic restrictions that Notre Dame will be operating under. That's likely why Kelly left Notre Dame. At LSU, he has free reign to bring in any coach he wants. I'm fully aware that Diaz is a crap coach, I was against the hire from day 1. Freeman's been under Brian Kelly for 1 year, doubt he learned that much under him at that time.

 

[Heatles84]

No offense man, but stop using Miami as some point of comparison. That program has been a mess for quite some time.

Ok, so you're telling me that a scheme has absolutely no impact whatsoever so long as you have 4/5 stars all over your defense? That's laughable, you still need to coach up the talent you're bringing in and put them in a position to succeed.

I bring up Miami, because I have data and real-life scenarios to back up my point.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Dabo - He's a rare entity. And holy crap he was on the verge of being fired before he broke through with Watson.
Smart - Was under the greatest college coach of all-time for over a decade. UGA also throws heavy bags at recruits more than anyone.
Day - Honestly, jury's still out on him. Doesn't hurt that you take over a program that Urban Meyer left. I'm curious what Ohio State looks like in year 4/5 of his tenure. But Ohio State is one of the few programs that can recruit itself annually into a top 10 class.
Riley - Again, took over for Bob Stoops and is a rare entity in itself.

Having said that, the schools you listed also don't have the academic restrictions that Notre Dame will be operating under. That's likely why Kelly left Notre Dame. At LSU, he has free reign to bring in any coach he wants. I'm fully aware that Diaz is a crap coach, I was against the hire from day 1. Freeman's been under Brian Kelly for 1 year, doubt he learned that much under him at that time.

Kelly’s infrastructure is still there just as the infrastructure for success existed at all those places I cited. Either you can coach or you can’t. Kelly took ND as far as he could. Freeman doesn’t have to build a program from the ground up in this case. But he’s in a position to bring energy that can translate to an uptick in talent. The guys in charge of developing players under Kelly are still at ND. Those guys produced a 54-9 run.

 

[fightinfunbags]

Ok, so you're telling me that a scheme has absolutely no impact whatsoever so long as you have 4/5 stars all over your defense? That's laughable, you still need to coach up the talent you're bringing in and put them in a position to succeed.

I bring up Miami, because I have data and real-life scenarios to back up my point.

I’m saying that most teams employ the same principles: leverage and disguise. You can win playing a 3/4, a 4/3, a 4/2/5, a 3/3/5. It’s about how well you execute and the quality of player in the scheme. You can’t fake talent.

 

[trojanfan12]

My only issue with Venables is why hasn’t he took on a head coaching gig before? Word is he has interviewed quite a bit and it hasn’t worked out.

Interesting. Could be that the right opportunity just hasn't presented itself. It could also be that he's a defense first coach in an era where everyone wants an exciting "space age" offense because for casual fans the offense dropping 30+ on someone is more exciting that the defense holding the opponent to 10 points.

Could also be that other schools didn't think he was head coaching material. Imo, it seems like the right hire for the Sooners, especially going into the SEC.

 

[Heatles84]

Kelly’s infrastructure is still there just as the infrastructure for success existed at all those places I cited. Either you can coach or you can’t. Kelly took ND as far as he could. Freeman doesn’t have to build a program from the ground up in this case. But he’s in a position to bring energy that can translate to an uptick in talent. The guys in charge of developing players under Kelly are still at ND. Those guys produced a 54-9 run.

It may work out, it may not. Being an "energy guy" doesn't always translate to success. Kelly left an infrastructure and the cupboards stocked, but Freeman's going to have to shift from being hands on to being the CEO of the program, that is very different. The one critical piece you leave out is the academic restrictions that exist at ND compared to everywhere else. Notre Dame was a mess prior to Brian Kelly coming on board. It could very well fall back into that. The other programs sans Clemson, they tend to stay afloat given that they're well established blue blood programs.

Notre Dame has finished around the top 15 in recruiting. You're not going to do much better than that with the academics being considered at an institution like Notre Dame.

 

[Heatles84]

I’m saying that most teams employ the same principles: leverage and disguise. You can win playing a 3/4, a 4/3, a 4/2/5, a 3/3/5. It’s about how well you execute and the quality of player in the scheme. You can’t fake talent.

It's not just the base defensive philosophy that you use, it's also situational. When are you using cover 2 vs using cover 1? Things like that.

 

[Heatles84]

Interesting. Could be that the right opportunity just hasn't presented itself. It could also be that he's a defense first coach in an era where everyone wants an exciting "space age" offense because for casual fans the offense dropping 30+ on someone is more exciting that the defense holding the opponent to 10 points.

Could also be that other schools didn't think he was head coaching material. Imo, it seems like the right hire for the Sooners, especially going into the SEC.

From public perception, Venables was comfortable being on staff with Dabo as most of his assistants have. He's close to the OU program apparently so that may be something that takes him out of his comfort zone. Plus, with the year Clemson had, maybe Venables is rethinking his approach.

 

[trojanfan12]

For me, defense is a Jimmy’s and Joes things more than scheme.

Yes and no.

Scheme is huge. Especially against some of these more sophisticated offenses because you have to put your players in position to be successful. Some coaches are better than others at that. You can have great defensive players, but if your scheme has them out of position...they're still going to get beat.

However, if your players aren't fast enough and/or big enough...or haven't been developed...how good your scheme is won't matter much either.

 

[bksballer89]

I know he's a solid DC and a decent recruiter. How does that translate to being a HC?

He is a leader of men

 

[Heatles84]

Yes and no.

Scheme is huge. Especially against some of these more sophisticated offenses because you have to put your players in position to be successful. Some coaches are better than others at that. You can have great defensive players, but if your scheme has them out of position...they're still going to get beat.

However, if your players aren't fast enough and/or big enough...or haven't been developed...how good your scheme is won't matter much either.

Ding ding ding

 

[Heatles84]

He is a leader of men

Takes a bit more than simply being a "leader".

 

[Heatles84]

I think some of you guys are underrating how difficult it is to be a HC at a Power 5 program, and the overall impact.

 

[Heatles84]

Yes and no.

Scheme is huge. Especially against some of these more sophisticated offenses because you have to put your players in position to be successful. Some coaches are better than others at that. You can have great defensive players, but if your scheme has them out of position...they're still going to get beat.

However, if your players aren't fast enough and/or big enough...or haven't been developed...how good your scheme is won't matter much either.

I've seen teams squander talent (outside of Miami). I've watched UF and FSU that also recruited at a high clip, had tons of 4 stars on their defense, just to squander it on defense. People don't realize how important coordinators and position coaches are, plus the overall structure and plans that the HC puts in for Spring ball, offseason training heading into the summer, plus week-to-week practices.