Michigan bit with the Alabama and OSU career ending injury bug

[TrustMeIamRight]

For the last time...the NFL is not CFB. You just will never understand that fact.

I know it isn't. The NFL, you are facing the best of the best on and off the field. If you don't think success in the NFL doesn't translate to college, I'm sorry. The reason is -- you don't see successful NFL coaches come back to college. This is a huge reason why the media reports everything he does.

 

[flyerhawk]

To be fair, that's not the topic. Right now, if you gave me the choice of Tom Herman or Gary Patterson, I'm taking Herman. He's not nearly as proven, but the potential is there. The potential is there with Harbaugh, but that's just what it is - potential. He hasn't earned the right to be mentioned among the elite tier.

That's fair. I think there is no question that as far as accomplishments go, Harbaugh is pretty far from elite. He simply doesn't have enough of a body of work in college to measure up to the elite coaches. Even if he were to wing a national title next season he still doesn't measure up to the true elites who have been doing it for a long time.

But there is also the subjective assessment of which coaches people actually think are the best.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Hold on. Are you really saying that Stanford and Michigan are essentially equals in terms of football?

Stanford had all of 2 9+ win seasons in the previous 30 before Harbaugh took control.

I get you are an OSU fan, but that is a pretty bold claim. Indiana is a P5 school as well. Does that mean that they are pretty much no different than Michigan as well?

Wamu will say anything to disparage UM and especially Harbaugh. He sees Stanford now and thinks that is the norm. He doest realize prior to Harbaugh winning 12 games with them. They had never won 11 in a season and only had 3 10 win seasons in 90+ years.

 

[Wamu]

Hmmm ok. Helfrich seems to be a bit of a stretch but sure.

So to be clear, if you were the AD of some random major football program and you had the pick of the litter of all these coaches, you would take them all before you would take Jim Harbaugh?

What has Harbaugh won? Every HC I mentioned @ least has some accomplishments that JH simply doesn't have right now. I just can't crown a HC that's done next to nothing so far as 1 of the best around right now. There's no doubt JH is a good HC, but let's wait until he actually wins some stuff. Would I take any of them over Harbaugh (based on what they have done)...yes.

 

[flyerhawk]

I know it isn't. The NFL, you are facing the best of the best on and off the field. If you don't think success in the NFL doesn't translate to college, I'm sorry. The reason is -- you don't see successful NFL coaches come back to college. This is a huge reason why the media reports everything he does.

This is a fair point. There aren't many successful NFL coaches that went back to college. Only one I can think of is Bill Walsh. Charlie Weis was never an NFL head coach but he was a long time OC and abject failure in college so I guess you could use him as an counter point.

 

[Wamu]

Wamu will say anything to disparage UM and especially Harbaugh. He sees Stanford now and thinks that is the norm. He doest realize prior to Harbaugh winning 12 games with them. They had never won 11 in a season and only had 3 10 win seasons in 90+ years.

No that's where you wrong. If I wanted to simply talk shit about JH or meeeechegan I'd go about it differently. You just can't admit JH hasn't really done anything on the CFB level. I have told you I think he's a good HC. That's not good enough for you though.

 

[Wamu]

Hold on. Are you really saying that Stanford and Michigan are essentially equals in terms of football?

Stanford had all of 2 9+ win seasons in the previous 30 before Harbaugh took control.

I get you are an OSU fan, but that is a pretty bold claim. Indiana is a P5 school as well. Does that mean that they are pretty much no different than Michigan as well?

Where did you get that from? I never said they were equal. All I said is that Stanford & meeeechegan are both P5 programs. Is that incorrect?

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

That's fair. I think there is no question that as far as accomplishments go, Harbaugh is pretty far from elite. He simply doesn't have enough of a body of work in college to measure up to the elite coaches. Even if he were to wing a national title next season he still doesn't measure up to the true elites who have been doing it for a long time.

But there is also the subjective assessment of which coaches people actually think are the best.

Subjective assessment. Like bringing a program from the dead to become a top program. Or taking a struggling NFL franchise from a decade of losing to one of the best teams in the NFL.

Everyone here seems to think I believe Harbaugh is the best coach. If u are talking accomplishments of NC's as a starting point -- it removes so many great coaches from the equation.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Where did you get that from? All I said is that Stanford & meeeechegan are both P5 programs. Is that incorrect?

I just asked you how many years has he coached an established program? You listed Stanford and UM. Stanford didn't become relevant again until Harbaugh brought them back from the dead. UM hasnt been relevant sans one year in a decade.

 

[Across The Field]

That's fair. I think there is no question that as far as accomplishments go, Harbaugh is pretty far from elite. He simply doesn't have enough of a body of work in college to measure up to the elite coaches. Even if he were to wing a national title next season he still doesn't measure up to the true elites who have been doing it for a long time.

But there is also the subjective assessment of which coaches people actually think are the best.

I don't disagree with this at all. I've defended Harbaugh's coaching abilities on here several times, and I think he will continue to win and build a contender at michigan.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

No that's where you wrong. If I wanted to simply talk shit about JH or meeeechegan I'd go about it differently. You just can't admit JH hasn't really done anything on the CFB level. I have told you I think he's a good HC. That's not good enough for you though.

How many coaches have taken a program from 1-11 to a top 5 ranking and BCS Bowl win in 4 years.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't disagree with this at all. I've defended Harbaugh's coaching abilities on here several times, and I think he will continue to win and build a contender at michigan.

Being a great coach isn't about winning championships until you are put in the position to do so. Very few schools have a legitimate shot to win one in college.

 

[Wamu]

How many coaches have taken a program from 1-11 to a top 5 ranking and BCS Bowl win in 4 years.

Look no amount of logic will get you to change your mind. For the last time what has JH won? You really don't get the fact he hasn't even won a conference crown yet, let alone a Natty. We judge HC's differently. I actually wait until a HC has won stuff rather than looking into a crystal ball trying to predict when JH might rack up some hardware. That's all I've been trying to say to you yet you keep ignoring that fact.

 

[flyerhawk]

What has Harbaugh won? Every HC I mentioned @ least has some accomplishments that JH simply doesn't have right now. I just can't crown a HC that's done next to nothing so far as 1 of the best around right now. There's no doubt JH is a good HC, but let's wait until he actually wins some stuff. Would I take any of them over Harbaugh (based on what they have done)...yes.

Well ok. Except I didn't say you needed to do anything. I certainly don't think that JH should be crowned anything, other than king of weirdo coaches.

But you seem to be trying to argue that Michigan is some run of the mill football school and that guys like Mark Helfrich are better because they took on an elite school that had another coaches recruiting class and did well. Seems a dubious standard to me.

 

[Across The Field]

Being a great coach isn't about winning championships until you are put in the position to do so. Very few schools have a legitimate shot to win one in college.

I don't agree with this at all. Mark Dantonio has turned Michigan State into a perennial national title contender, and he largely built his foundation on the backs of 2-3 star players that he coaches up. Aside from being in the Big Ten, there really isn't much that would make you think MSU should be a title-contending school, but they are. That's what makes him one of the greatest coaches in college football currently.

 

[flyerhawk]

I don't disagree with this at all. I've defended Harbaugh's coaching abilities on here several times, and I think he will continue to win and build a contender at michigan.

When it comes to actual coaching, I think he is easily one of the top coaches in FBS.

What we really don't know is whether he can build a national championship caliber program. We don't even know if he will stick around long enough to do it.

 

[4down20]

Is the medical retirement a way to allow a player, who was likely to get cut from the team, to stay in college? If so, then I think it is pretty cool that teams do that. I honestly don't know.

Yes this is exactly what it is. But the OP refuses to understand that and believes that somehow Medicals are given out as a way to remove kids from the team. In truth, scholarships are for 1 year and they don't have any obligation at all to renew them unless they want and could easily just cut the kid from the team.

The Real Value of Medical Scholarships | The Sport Digest

 

[Bamabino]

Yes this is exactly what it is. But the OP refuses to understand that and believes that somehow Medicals are given out as a way to remove kids from the team. In truth, scholarships are for 1 year and they don't have any obligation at all to renew them unless they want and could easily just cut the kid from the team.

The Real Value of Medical Scholarships | The Sport Digest

Them's high praise coming from an Auburn man.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't agree with this at all. Mark Dantonio has turned Michigan State into a perennial national title contender, and he largely built his foundation on the backs of 2-3 star players that he coaches up. Aside from being in the Big Ten, there really isn't much that would make you think MSU should be a title-contending school, but they are. That's what makes him one of the greatest coaches in college football currently.

And that is why I put Dantonio as one of the top 5 coaches. Also why I said, many great coaches have never won a national championship and may never. IMO, MSU will never win a national championship though, unless they start treating their roster like SEC schools and Urban Meyer (and now Harbaugh as well) do. (Side note -- I can't vouche for what teams in the ACC or Big 12 do, as I don't follow them closely enough)

What makes teams like Bama and OSU so good is their tremendous depth. They can lose a player and the next guy up is just as good. The reason for this is -- if a player isn't contributing, they don't stay on the team. Whether it be transfers, not renewing 5th year seniors, medical harships like never seen before, grey shirts, etc. -- no coach is better than Saban and Meyer. When you do this AND bring in a top recruiting class or in Saban's case, every year basically -- you build a dominate and really deep team.

This is why I said -- all HC's who get to the top are cut throat and shady. Not that they are bad people with no morals, but they are willing to do what it takes to put together the best team possible.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Yes this is exactly what it is. But the OP refuses to understand that and believes that somehow Medicals are given out as a way to remove kids from the team. In truth, scholarships are for 1 year and they don't have any obligation at all to renew them unless they want and could easily just cut the kid from the team.

Saban doesn't cut players. And if Bama were using medical hardships like the rest of the NCAA teams, they wouldn't have given out as many in a 3 year span as the other 11 teams in the SEC COMBINED.

Remember where I said all top coaches are willing to push the boundaries of the rules. Perfect example right here. No matter how much of a Bama homer a fan is -- you know without question, there is zero chance Bama suffered 12 medical hardships, while 11 other teams in your conference suffered 13 combined in a 3 year period.

I don't know how many times I can say I don't have an issue with it either. Trying to pass it off as legitimate is my problem.