I hope Michael Sam flames out in the NFL

[Jikkle]

You're misrepresenting what he says. It's the same thing that happened with Tebow. His talent didn't justify the media circus that accompanied him. Neither does Sam's, IMO. It has more to do with the attention (mostly because of the media than anything else) than what Sam does in his bedroom.

Agreed

That's why I've been saying the irony is the media who champions the cause so much is actually the biggest obstacle for gay players in the NFL.

Coaches are focused on winning in their particular sport and anything that could negatively impact their chances of winning is undesirable or unwanted. Sam like Tebow don't have the talent to justify the media circus they bring thus coaches are likely to pass on them when it comes to adding to their team.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Seriously? You honestly believe that? Given your definition of the suffix "phobic" means "doesn't like," which I'll suspend reality to accept for the moment, do you really think those people simply don't like anyone from other countries? It's that simple?

You don't think it has anything to do with the financial burden those people will incur upon an already out-of-control-and-drowning-in-debt public sector? Not wanting to go to work every day in order to financially support a humungous wave of people who come here illegally & don't show up to their immigration hearings means you're xenophobic? It's that simple for you?

This sounds like a line out of a political playbook instead of an honest opinion. It's almost exactly like when liberals say conservatives don't like Obama because he's black; but they know it's just a bull shit line used to piss people off. If Obama were a conservative then conservatives would be singing his praises, and if Allan West ran against Joe Biden conservatives sure as hell wouldn't support Joe.

Let me ask you this: if a homeless crack head on the street asks you for some money and you say no does that mean you're hobophobic?

You're defining the term homophobia as "no liking," not me. Obviously xenophobia goes much deeper than simply being afraid of all foreigners. And homophobia goes much deeper than simply not liking gays. If anything, this post proves my point.

And why do you insist on making this conversation about liberals and conservatives?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I suppose that's one particular way in which they're similar.



I said he GOT preferential treatment. As in how it actually went down (no pun intended). See the NFL combine. See the ESPYs. He is being treated more than fairly.

And he still got drafted! There might be GMs who would discriminate against him for being gay; there might be other GMs who would draft him solely because he's gay (and the Rams' GM might be one of those guys; spending one of two consecutive picks 6 slots away from Mr. Irrelevant is as close to a throw-away pick as it gets). The fact remains that if you look at what has actually happened to the guy he has nothing to complain about.

That statement is directly opposed to your earlier statement that no one is discriminating against Michael Sam.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Well, simple. I've meant individuals who have been straight one week, bi the next, gay the next month and then back to straight a few months later. I've never met someone, you know, change races.

I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in here somewhere, but I couldn't care less about what someone does in his or her bedroom, and in no way should they be discriminated against because of it.

But, please, sexual orientation and color of skin are not the same thing.

I will agree that human sexuality is a spectrum, and people are not necessarily fixed at one point. But plenty of people are able to move between "races." Race, after all, is a social construct. Two of my best friends in high school were National Hispanic Scholars. Their last names were Schmidt and Graham. One was blonde with blue eyes, the other had brown hair and green eyes. Both had skin at least as light as mine. One could argue that they "changed" races rather fluidly.

The discrimination that racial minorities and gays have faced in this country (and many others) undeniably has parallels, IMO. Obviously the extent of that discrimination went further in terms of institutionalization in the case of African Americans, but I don't see how anyone can claim it's a completely unfair comparison.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

You're misrepresenting what he says. It's the same thing that happened with Tebow. His talent didn't justify the media circus that accompanied him. Neither does Sam's, IMO. It has more to do with the attention (mostly because of the media than anything else) than what Sam does in his bedroom.

That may be true in your case, Clyde. Let's not pretend that's the case with everyone who dislikes Sam.

 

[yossarian]

I understand the point about not taking Sam, a late round talent for the NFL, because of the media circus. I think however, as was pointed out in some columns yesterday, Dungy was being hypocritical in the extreme by arguing that this should be a reason for not taking him. He advocated taking on Michael Vick when there was a shitstorm around him and had also been a vocal supporter for a team to take Tebow. Apparently he didn't feel that the potential distractions that surrounded those players should have been impediments to them finding a job in the NFL and he advocated for them, but Sam is different. I wonder why? He should just be honest about why he wouldn't take him, my guess is that he knows that he'll get some very justified criticism for it.

 

[MHSL82]

I don't understand the motivation to say anything about it. I know he was asked that question, but it seems like he could plant on it. I just think it's kind of weird to say that distractions are a reason not to take the player and then to create a distraction. Just "no comment" it or give a non-answer and it would not be a distraction. It's like when media people lamented the attention of Tebow. And that was all the report had. WTF? If you do not want to be in the news then don't comment on it. Let others do it. At the very least, don't make reports on how it is being talked about. Only report what is new, even if it's not newsworthy because I know you are keeping up with the Joneses if you are the media and these thing bring in viewers. I am not against non-newsworthy information if it brings you viewers, that's your prerogative. I just don't like when people lament in the media on the coverage when their sole report on it is the oversaturation. That is like Batman apologizing for his eating while taking a piece of chocolate from the table. Eat it if you want, just don't apologize if you're going to do it.

 

[Jikkle]

Tony Dungy elaborates on his Michael Sam comments | ProFootballTalk

Hopefully that puts the rest to the whole Dungy thing.

 

[CalamityX11]

You should have a right to voice your own opinion/feeling without being dissected or blown up for.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

You should have a right to voice your own opinion/feeling without being dissected or blown up for.

Maybe you should have that right, but you don't. I think we've gone a little (more than a little?) overboard with blowing people up for every little thing they say, but hey, if you're saying controversial things - particularly in a public forum - the reality is that you will get some blowback as a result.

 

[deep9er]

Dungy's opinion is likely the same for 95% of NFL teams and football fans?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Dungy's opinion is likely the same for 95% of NFL teams and football fans?

95% seems high if we're talking about all fans.

 

[yossarian]

Tony Dungy elaborates on his Michael Sam comments | ProFootballTalk

Hopefully that puts the rest to the whole Dungy thing.

It does, can we talk about abortion, gun control, or the Middle East now?

 

[NinerSickness]

If you really want to argue against Webster's Dictionary, be my guest. The definition for homophobia is right there. I'd rather use a reliable source to determine the meaning of words instead of just subjectively determining which definitions I personally consider bullshit. But hey, what do I know?

It isn't subjective at all. The suffix "phobic" means to be afraid of something. It comes from the noun "phobia."

Arachnophobia | Define Arachnophobia at Dictionary.com --- noun an abnormal or pathological fear of spiders.

Agoraphobia | Define Agoraphobia at Dictionary.com --- noun Psychiatry.
an abnormal fear of being in crowds, public places, or open areas, sometimes accompanied by anxiety attacks.

Galeophobia | Define Galeophobia at Dictionary.com --- Noun a fear of cats

Liberals play word games and change the definition of words, and I call them out on it.

Definitions aside though, I still don't see what's so wrong with making a comparison between homophobia and racism. You didn't respond to the main part of that post.

Any person, gay or straight, is capable of not committing homosexual sex acts. Are some people incapable of not being attracted to men? Who knows. I might not be capable of being attracted to your wife, but that doesn't mean it would be ok for me to fuck her. A black person is not capable of not being black. All kinds of people have been hated or mistreated because of things like race, being gay, their religion, their political beliefs and so on. That's wrong. I don't hate gay people. I don't like them, but I certainly don't hate them; and I'm perfectly polite to them when our paths cross. The abolitioninist / civil rights movement defended & defends differing treatment because of something that simply is and can't be altered. The homo' movement is defending a behaviour. It's not the same thing.

 

[yossarian]

But sick, you seem to be equating gay sex between two consenting adults in a committed relationship with you fucking another mans wife in that neither behavior should occur, you're basically saying no gay individual should ever have sex, don't you think that's a little problematic?

 

[NinerSickness]

You're defining the term homophobia as "no liking," not me. Obviously xenophobia goes much deeper than simply being afraid of all foreigners. And homophobia goes much deeper than simply not liking gays. If anything, this post proves my point.

And why do you insist on making this conversation about liberals and conservatives?

Because what you brought up IS about liberals and conservatives. Liberals like to say it's not about left VS right; it's about being "compassionate" to people VS being "xenophobic" (the aforementioned word games liberals play). They know it's bull shit, but that doesn't stop them from repeating the slogan to low-information voters.

What it's really about is left VS right. People on the right don't want the massive increase of government spending it takes to accept a tidal wave of people coming here illegally; people on the left are gambling that those people will vote for people with a D next to their names, so they say it's worth forcing everyone to pay for it because the ends justify the means. Lib's not only justify but are complicit in people breaking the law, and conservatives don't suffer people who break the law. It's that simple. Don't throw out coded Democrat slogans & then say it's not about left VS right.

 

[NinerSickness]

you're basically saying no gay individual should ever have sex, don't you think that's a little problematic?

Nope. That's what m@sturbation is for. Just because you're attracted to something doesn't mean it's ok to fuck it.

 

[NinerSickness]

And if we're going to include the media giving him "preferential treatment" at the combine, how about this treatment from the media:

Y! SPORTS

If Clyde dropped him in his pre-draft rankings too, does that mean Michael Sam is guilty of discrimination by Clyde? Because Clyde has about the same effect on how high he's drafted as CBS does.

That statement is directly opposed to your earlier statement that no one is discriminating against Michael Sam.

No, I said nobody has negatively affected his career because he's gay. And that's absolutely true. Michael Sam is a borderline last on the depth chart / practice-squad / unemployed caliber football player, and 6 spots before Mr. Irrelevant is exactly where a guy like that belongs on draft day. In fact, the throw-away pick used to draft him was more than likely BECAUSE he's gay & can sell some jerseys & get people talking about / paying attention to the Rams.

 

[whysies]

The "homo movement?"

I like how Sick can be an insufferable pedant and yet still spew such wildly (willfully?) ignorant stuff.



Sick- I never really thought you would be the one to make the full Nolan Nonsense heel turn when Toby got the boot, especially in light of all the goodwill you drummed up during Modgate. I'm not sure you're the villain we deserve, but you're definitely the villain we need right now.

Off topic, but: I want to once again express my admiration for Crimson (and an honorary mention for imac). The dude can always discuss things with the more frightening extremes of this site and still maintain a coherent debate when his opposition loses all grip on reality and just starts spewing the most weirdly incoherent crap all over their keyboard. Seriously man, you're a rockstar and you get my vote for MVP of this board (at least when Pozz is on hiatus )

 

[NinerSickness]

Looking at this from the perspective of a GM whose team is a SB competitor...

What if there were a guy who's exactly as talented as Michael Sam (so not very), and most people think he's a 6th / 7th rounder to UDFA. Say this guy is extremely outspoken against gay marriage & goes on a bunch of talk shows about it & a lot of people don't like the guy because of that position. Would it be "discrimination" if you passed on the guy because you didn't want the controversy?

We're not talking about Jadaveon Clowney here; we're talking about a guy who probably won't even make it in the league.

The Rams, on the other hand, are not Super Bowl contenders, so they can afford to have the side show & the "Stand with Sam" stickers.