Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[dredinis21]

Thanks fellas. It still bothers me today just as much as it did yesterday. the thing that irks me the most is that most of these writers didn't have the fucking balls to put their name to their own ballot. If you are going to take such a stand and draw the preverbal line in the sand, at least let everyone know who you are. It's like that "anonymous source" that leaks how they really feel about a teammate, situation in the clubhouse, job that the manager is doing, etc. without wanting to attach their names to the comments. Don't be a fucking coward, let everyone know what kind of stand you planned to take. What are you afraid of....that maybe someone will go digging into YOUR professional history to see if maybe your columns reek of HR Chase mayhem 15 years ago? If maybe you won any awards for your column on how McGwire and Sosa saved the game of baseball in that fateful summer of 1998? Or that piece of how history shows that Bonds was the single greatest offensive force this game has ever seen? Because everyone's fucking hands are dirty on this one, from the commish to the team owners to the locker room attendants, to the players and managers, and yes, the the sportswriters that swung to and fro from the players' respective dongs and sung their praises while tickling the balls at the same time.

Bonds is the best offensive player I have ever seen. I'm only 34 so I never got the chance to see Willie Mays play with my own eyes aside from various video of him. But I watched Buck Showalter walk Bonds with the bases juiced in a game once. I saw Bonds break the IBB record not once but twice and probably could have broken it a couple more times if you include the "unintentional but I'm going to throw 4 pitches in the dirt" walks. I saw Bonds steal a shit ton of bases as a LEADOFF hitter for the Pirates, become the games first 300/300 guy, the first 400/400 guy, lead the world in HRs in a single season as well as a career, and ultimately put up numbers that only Babe Ruth could be compared to. The fact that this man is not in the HOF, regardless of how much of an asshole he may have been (met him twice, was nice as could be to me both times) as a 1st ballot HOF is a fucking travesty.

 

[SF11704]

Dredinis .... while I can feel your anger and understand it and appreciate it .... I also think that the issue at hand is much deeper than a bunch of ignorant reporters casting HOF ballets. IMHO the core of the issue lies at the feet of the casual baseball fan. There are many many casual baseball fans. We all know them. They have an opinion about everything to do with the sport yet know little about the game itself. Most writers only succeed if they play to their audience. This audience seems to be ignorant, racial to some extent and clearly opinionated. You have to remember all of the trolls that frequented our boards during Bonds' run at the Babe. Their logic was something to behold. If they could have erased all of Bonds' playing history forever ... they would have. All because he was considered a cheater .... really didn't hear the same outcry about Clemens, AROD and all the rest of the cheaters group. They were so centered on Bonds it was almost scary .....

 

[tzill]

There is no evidence that steroid use has altered home run hitting and those who argue otherwise are profoundly ignorant of the statistics of home runs, the physics of baseball, and of the physiological effects of steroids.
--Professor Arthur DeVany, "Steroids, Home Runs and the Law of Genius"

 

[dredinis21]

Dredinis .... while I can feel your anger and understand it and appreciate it .... I also think that the issue at hand is much deeper than a bunch of ignorant reporters casting HOF ballets. IMHO the core of the issue lies at the feet of the casual baseball fan. There are many many casual baseball fans. We all know them. They have an opinion about everything to do with the sport yet know little about the game itself. Most writers only succeed if they play to their audience. This audience seems to be ignorant, racial to some extent and clearly opinionated. You have to remember all of the trolls that frequented our boards during Bonds' run at the Babe. Their logic was something to behold. If they could have erased all of Bonds' playing history forever ... they would have. All because he was considered a cheater .... really didn't hear the same outcry about Clemens, AROD and all the rest of the cheaters group. They were so centered on Bonds it was almost scary .....

It may have been racial but I don't think for a large part of America that was the case. People loved McGwire and Sosa. Bonds was an asshole who was (according to outside media) prickly, wasn't liked by his teammates (not true), and became the scapegoat for steroids when it was in its embryo stages of discovery because of this. Clemens and others got off easy because Bonds already had taken the flack for them. Bonds was the national villain because of misguided perception that he was Ty Cobb reincarnated and people fed off that bullshit. Who gives the national audience this perception? The Sportswriters. The same asshats who outed his dad as an alcoholic publicly. The same asshats that followed his every at bat. The same asshats that consistently wrote about Bonds' playoff shortcomings pre-2002 as if he were the only superstar that hit mendoza in October with a relatively small sample size. So my vitriol is ABSOLUTELY rightfully (IMO) geared towards the Sportswriters....the final straw was their HOF voting.

 

[gp956]

DeadSpin on Jon Heyman:

April 2011 -

While I do believe Bonds took steroids (whether it was knowingly or not doesn't much matter to me, though if I had to guess, I think he knows everything that goes in his body), I don't believe all steroid users should be excluded from the Hall of Fame. I'm not here to sit in moral judgment of another human being.

Jan 7 2012 -

I didn't want to reward the cheats.

 

[HammerDown]

I have no prob exercising a 1-year moratorium on all these guys, but they deserve to be in.

I personally would not vote Sosa, but that is mainly because he is a two-time cheat (cork). You cant trust any of his numbers.

Bonds and Clemens are still no-brainers.

Exactly what calsnowskier just said and I'd venture to say that 99% of real baseball fans agree. Sammy and Palmeiro (sanctimonious asshole) aren't even close but Clemens and Bonds would have been HOF without the juice. I'd consider Big Mac but probably wouldn't vote him in but he's lightyears ahead of Sammy and Palmeiro.

 

[bone3421]

Exactly what calsnowskier just said and I'd venture to say that 99% of real baseball fans agree. Sammy and Palmeiro (sanctimonious asshole) aren't even close but Clemens and Bonds would have been HOF without the juice. I'd consider Big Mac but probably wouldn't vote him in but he's lightyears ahead of Sammy and Palmeiro.

raffy has 3000 hits,500 hr and 1800 rbi's if you think that isnt HOF worthy even with playing in "that" era then i guess no one should be in

 

[powerchord86]

Exactly what calsnowskier just said and I'd venture to say that 99% of real baseball fans agree. Sammy and Palmeiro (sanctimonious asshole) aren't even close but Clemens and Bonds would have been HOF without the juice. I'd consider Big Mac but probably wouldn't vote him in but he's lightyears ahead of Sammy and Palmeiro.

 

[HammerDown]

Which part? You think Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens wouldn't have been in the HOF if not for PEDs?

 

[HammerDown]

raffy has 3000 hits,500 hr and 1800 rbi's if you think that isnt HOF worthy even with playing in "that" era then i guess no one should be in

To me Raffy is like Lance Cheatstrong; they're worse than your typical cheater because they do it, then they stick their nose in the air and get all sanctimonious on us like we're all a bunch of fools who can't see the obvious.

 

[gp956]

raffy has 3000 hits,500 hr and 1800 rbi's if you think that isnt HOF worthy even with playing in "that" era then i guess no one should be in

I'd put him in, but not on the first ballot. He's hurt a bit because he put up his best number after the age of 32. In fact , he's third in homeruns after the age of 35 - right behind Hank Aaron, who I always thought had a little help in his late career (the numbers prove it).

 

[gp956]

Which part? You think Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens wouldn't have been in the HOF if not for PEDs?

I think it's the: "if you don't agree with me, you're not a real fan" fallacy that he's objecting to.

 

[bone3421]

To me Raffy is like Lance Cheatstrong; they're worse than your typical cheater because they do it, then they stick their nose in the air and get all sanctimonious on us like we're all a bunch of fools who can't see the obvious.

i guess...but didnt roger,barry and everyone else deny it also

they should all be in IMO....cant have a HOF with a 20 year gap of the greatest players

 

[HammerDown]

I think it's the: "if you don't agree with me, you're not a real fan" fallacy that he's objecting to.

Didn't mean that at all. Never even thought it. I guess if anything my number is just exaggerated but I do think that the vast majority of objective baseball fans would have to agree that Clemens and Bonds could have made the HOF without PEDs, whether they'd vote for them now or not. If you're going to let your dislike of the person get in the way, you'll disagree.

 

[HammerDown]

i guess...but didnt roger,barry and everyone else deny it also

they should all be in IMO....cant have a HOF with a 20 year gap of the greatest players

So you think the testimony of Palmeiro I pictured above was typical of Bonds and Clemens denial? I don't. Sammy was just a big joke with all his "no understandee Engles" And Big Mac was just pitiful. Palmeiro called Canseco a liar and couldn't stop sticking his finger in the camera to let everyone know how indignant he was about the accusation. The day he tested positive I was euphoric that he got exposed for the punk-ass bitch he is.

 

[bone3421]

I'd put him in, but not on the first ballot. He's hurt a bit because he put up his best number after the age of 32. In fact , he's third in homeruns after the age of 35 - right behind Hank Aaron, who I always thought had a little help in his late career (the numbers prove it).

i went back to dbl check what i thought.....and was wrong.......he was in camden yard then

but the ballpark in arlington was built for left handed power

rf is listed as 318 at balt. so that probably helped his hr's

 

[gp956]

i guess...but didnt roger,barry and everyone else deny it also

they should all be in IMO....cant have a HOF with a 20 year gap of the greatest players

At some point, self-interest among writers and existing HOF members will prevail, as they realize their own importance is diminished when the best of a generation are excluded.

 

[HammerDown]

At some point, self-interest among writers and existing HOF members will prevail, as they realize their own importance is diminished when the best of a generation are excluded.

Pretty profound but do you think existing HOFers are willing to go out on a limb and be the first to endorse voting these guys in?

 

[gp956]

i went back to dbl check what i thought.....and was correct

one reason for his production jump was the ballbark in arlington was built with the thought of him and other left handed bats

the short HR porch benefited left handed power from raffy to josh hamilton and ken griffey also jacked a bunch out there.........just like bonds was helped by the san fran park

Sure, there were many factors involved to explain Palmeiro's late career power jump, as there were for nearly every ball player of that era, i.e. more lively parks, narrower strike-zones, and the like. But all that means is that the numbers get adjusted - the same as one might adjust Wade Boggs' numbers for being a lefthanded hitter playing at Fenway.

 

[bone3421]

So you think the testimony of Palmeiro I pictured above was typical of Bonds and Clemens denial? I don't. Sammy was just a big joke with all his "no understandee Engles" And Big Mac was just pitiful. Palmeiro called Canseco a liar and couldn't stop sticking his finger in the camera to let everyone know how indignant he was about the accusation. The day he tested positive I was euphoric that he got exposed for the punk-ass bitch he is.

he was just a better actor than everyone else

i am sure they were all on the same page......deny,deny,deny