Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[Heathbar012]

If all of these guys get in next year than this is just dumb. In the future nobody is going to care that they weren't first ballot guys. I don't think this stand does anything other than give the voters some inflated sense of self righteousness.

This.

 

[calsnowskier]

How could Clemens receive a higher total than Bonds? Clemens received 37.6% while Bonds got 36.2%.

If someone is going to keep one of them out, but not the other, they are a complete hypocrite and should have their voting rights revoked. What possible reason could a voter say Clemens is worthy, but Bonds is not?

Further, how could Biggio and Piazza miss? I figured them for locks. I would not have been surprised if Morris made it, although he never got a vote from me.

 

[gp956]

If all of these guys get in next year than this is just dumb. In the future nobody is going to care that they weren't first ballot guys. I don't think this stand does anything other than give the voters some inflated sense of self righteousness.

Yep.

 

[gp956]

How could Clemens receive a higher total than Bonds? Clemens received 37.6% while Bonds got 36.2%.

If someone is going to keep one of them out, but not the other, they are a complete hypocrite and should have their voting rights revoked. What possible reason could a voter say Clemens is worthy, but Bonds is not?

Further, how could Biggio and Piazza miss? I figured them for locks. I would not have been surprised if Morris made it, although he never got a vote from me.

To paraphrase one writer: Clemens was more "believable" than Bonds. His salient reasoning was that Clemen's main accuser (Mcnamee) was a "con man".

 

[gp956]

Prevailing commentary seems to be that the writers are punishing MLB for looking the other way on PEDs for so long.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Prevailing commentary seems to be that the writers are punishing MLB for looking the other way on PEDs for so long.

The sad thing is, they're not punishing "MLB" (the business, the "corporation") at all.

 

[gp956]

The sad thing is, they're not punishing "MLB" (the business, the "corporation") at all.

Of course not. Ultimately, they're diminishing the HOF and they're own importance as gate keepers.

 

[rmilia1]

The way I look at it is if Bonds and Clemens had both retired in say 1995 would they have been HOFers??? Fuck yeah IMO, so I wouldnt keep them out because of shit they did later especially when we have no way of knowing how prevelant it was.

 

[tzill]

Keeping steroid users out is an exercise in ignoring context. It makes the Hall of Fame a museum without context. That's like a movie without images, a smore without graham crackers, or a copy of Snow's Greatest Hits without "Informer." Or, for that matter, a DVD of Snow's greatest hits without Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS. What's the point? What is this whole thing for? Shouldn't you just stop and call it something else?

The only way to argue otherwise is to see the Hall of Fame as nothing but some sort of reward for the players. If that's the point of the Hall of Fame, maybe we need a separate museum that tells about baseball's history instead. I'd rather go to that one.

 

[gp956]

Keeping steroid users out is an exercise in ignoring context. It makes the Hall of Fame a museum without context. That's like a movie without images, a smore without graham crackers, or a copy of Snow's Greatest Hits without "Informer." Or, for that matter, a DVD of Snow's greatest hits without Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS. What's the point? What is this whole thing for? Shouldn't you just stop and call it something else?

The only way to argue otherwise is to see the Hall of Fame as nothing but some sort of reward for the players. If that's the point of the Hall of Fame, maybe we need a separate museum that tells about baseball's history instead. I'd rather go to that one.

Well stated.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Keeping steroid users out is an exercise in ignoring context. It makes the Hall of Fame a museum without context. That's like a movie without images, a smore without graham crackers, or a copy of Snow's Greatest Hits without "Informer." Or, for that matter, a DVD of Snow's greatest hits without Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS. What's the point? What is this whole thing for? Shouldn't you just stop and call it something else?

The only way to argue otherwise is to see the Hall of Fame as nothing but some sort of reward for the players. If that's the point of the Hall of Fame, maybe we need a separate museum that tells about baseball's history instead. I'd rather go to that one.

Agreed. Question, in 5 years do they give Chipper Jones the same treatment? Is this now the rule for that entire generation? Was this a one time deal where the writers pat themselves on the back or do we have to deal with this dog and pony show for all first ballot HOF? Where do we go from here?

 

[dredinis21]

I am as passionate about baseball as I am about football so please forgive the upcoming onslaught of piss and vinegar directed towards the baseball writers who are voting:

Fuck them. I have no idea why this hallowed group of observationalists are deemed worthy enough to somehow become judge, jury, and executioner of baseball righteousness but their "statement" today showed that they are all idiots.

First off, I think we could all agree that Clemens and Bonds had relatively parallel careers with regards to dominance in the sport (best of the era) while also having roughly the same suspicion and extracurricular activity surrounding it in the form of grand juries, etc. So how can Bonds get 2% less vote then Clemens? Is it racism? Probably not. The only other thing I can assume is that some of these writers are probably salty because Bonds didn't grant them an interview or was an asshole to them. Whichever one you think it may be, neither should hold any weight when determining who should make it into the HOF.

This bullshit notion that character and integrity played a part gets blown out of the water by the fact that the HOF currently has wife beaters, racists (members of the KKK), and admitted cheaters already enshrined. Hell, Ty Cobb is the biggest asshole this game has ever seen and he was a 1st ballot HOF with 98% of the vote.

The fact is that the HOF is a museum that should tell the story of baseball, should tell the story of great players dominating their respective eras and I fail to see why this "steroid era" is any different. Much like there is a story to be told about the Black Sox scandal or Cliff Flood being baseball's first FA or Jackie Robinson integrating baseball, the strike of 1994 coupled with the circumstantial evidence surrounding the offensive boom that took place shortly after that frankly SAVED the game can absolutely be told at Cooperstown. Guys like Bonds, Piazza, Clemens, Biggio were the best in their era and the HOF should show as such.

Everyone is baseball is guilty of turning a blind eye to what was going on, baseball writers included so it is completely hypocritical to me to see those same writers who glorified it 15 years ago to now take a moral stand. Where was your outrage in 1995? I didn't see ESPN or any other news station for that matter complain when they were LITERALLY stopping normal news broadcasting to cut to a Sosa or McGwire at bat in 1998. I didn't see the writers refuse to write non-stop about the HR chases that ultimately SAVED baseball. Hell, I'm pretty sure Pulitzers were won off the backs of these players yet I haven't heard any of these writers come out and return those awards.

So here we are...with a great number of great players that got shafted by a bunch of dip-shits that suddenly found the fucking sack to ride the moral high horse...the same writers that turned a blind eye when it was smack in front of them, the same writers that made money off these players in the form of guest appearances on networks or through their columns about these players or their successes are now pretentious enough to act as if they are the gatekeepers to integrity and character.

IDGAF if they are letting these players in next year, the bottom line is that if they are HOF next year, then they were HOF this year too. Nothing about their stats are going to change in the next 364 days to sway the vote. Every writer who thinks he is proving a point or punishing the players by not voting them in this year should be kicked in the taint...repeatedly.

 

[dredinis21]

I wrote this initially on the Niner board not realizing I was on the Niner board. It was meant to be placed here.

 

[Smoke]

Didn't read the thread, but IF Bonds and Clemens did use PED's in the latter part of their careers, ask yourself this: Were they HOF worthy BEFORE they used PED's? I say HELL YES. So vote them in.

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Fuck them. I have no idea why this hallowed group of observationalists are deemed worthy enough to somehow become judge, jury, and executioner of baseball righteousness but their "statement" today showed that they are all idiots.

To kind of go along with this, how many of these writers made their careers writing about that era? How many of these guys were all over McGwire and Sosa in 1998? Self serving hypocrites.

 

[gp956]

To kind of go along with this, how many of these writers made their careers writing about that era? How many of these guys were all over McGwire and Sosa in 1998? Self serving hypocrites.

Deadspin had a nice article on this topic. A snippet:

This is why the BBWAA voters for the Hall of Fame now find themselves in such a mess, as the players of the steroids era become eligible. Before they can make historical judgments, they have to confront their own professional dissonance. These writers in many cases weren't just passive bystanders to the PED users, but hapless-yet-active allies in bringing them fame, fortune, and national respect.

It's got to be personally galling for reporters who put so much effort into chronicling the new titans of baseball to now find that history views their work as naive at best, malpractice at worst. Tom Verducci is the guy who landed Caminiti, but he's also the guy who got suckered by Clemens.

 

[Heathbar012]

I am as passionate about baseball as I am about football so please forgive the upcoming onslaught of piss and vinegar directed towards the baseball writers who are voting:

Fuck them. I have no idea why this hallowed group of observationalists are deemed worthy enough to somehow become judge, jury, and executioner of baseball righteousness but their "statement" today showed that they are all idiots.

First off, I think we could all agree that Clemens and Bonds had relatively parallel careers with regards to dominance in the sport (best of the era) while also having roughly the same suspicion and extracurricular activity surrounding it in the form of grand juries, etc. So how can Bonds get 2% less vote then Clemens? Is it racism? Probably not. The only other thing I can assume is that some of these writers are probably salty because Bonds didn't grant them an interview or was an asshole to them. Whichever one you think it may be, neither should hold any weight when determining who should make it into the HOF.

This bullshit notion that character and integrity played a part gets blown out of the water by the fact that the HOF currently has wife beaters, racists (members of the KKK), and admitted cheaters already enshrined. Hell, Ty Cobb is the biggest asshole this game has ever seen and he was a 1st ballot HOF with 98% of the vote.

The fact is that the HOF is a museum that should tell the story of baseball, should tell the story of great players dominating their respective eras and I fail to see why this "steroid era" is any different. Much like there is a story to be told about the Black Sox scandal or Cliff Flood being baseball's first FA or Jackie Robinson integrating baseball, the strike of 1994 coupled with the circumstantial evidence surrounding the offensive boom that took place shortly after that frankly SAVED the game can absolutely be told at Cooperstown. Guys like Bonds, Piazza, Clemens, Biggio were the best in their era and the HOF should show as such.

Everyone is baseball is guilty of turning a blind eye to what was going on, baseball writers included so it is completely hypocritical to me to see those same writers who glorified it 15 years ago to now take a moral stand. Where was your outrage in 1995? I didn't see ESPN or any other news station for that matter complain when they were LITERALLY stopping normal news broadcasting to cut to a Sosa or McGwire at bat in 1998. I didn't see the writers refuse to write non-stop about the HR chases that ultimately SAVED baseball. Hell, I'm pretty sure Pulitzers were won off the backs of these players yet I haven't heard any of these writers come out and return those awards.

So here we are...with a great number of great players that got shafted by a bunch of dip-shits that suddenly found the fucking sack to ride the moral high horse...the same writers that turned a blind eye when it was smack in front of them, the same writers that made money off these players in the form of guest appearances on networks or through their columns about these players or their successes are now pretentious enough to act as if they are the gatekeepers to integrity and character.

IDGAF if they are letting these players in next year, the bottom line is that if they are HOF next year, then they were HOF this year too. Nothing about their stats are going to change in the next 364 days to sway the vote. Every writer who thinks he is proving a point or punishing the players by not voting them in this year should be kicked in the taint...repeatedly.

I posted this on my facebook wall, and would happily give you credit, but it seemed weird to type "courtesy of dredinis21." Either way, I didn't take any credit for it (just edited some words to "jerks" and "bullhockey").

 

[Nasty_Magician]

Deadspin had a nice article on this topic. A snippet:

Good stuff.

 

[ckhokie]

Deadspin also has Sammy Sosa's Pinterest

Sammy Sosa Has The Best Pinterest Page Ever

 

[Stokes1931]

I am as passionate about baseball as I am about football so please forgive the upcoming onslaught of piss and vinegar directed towards the baseball writers who are voting:

Fuck them. I have no idea why this hallowed group of observationalists are deemed worthy enough to somehow become judge, jury, and executioner of baseball righteousness but their "statement" today showed that they are all idiots.

First off, I think we could all agree that Clemens and Bonds had relatively parallel careers with regards to dominance in the sport (best of the era) while also having roughly the same suspicion and extracurricular activity surrounding it in the form of grand juries, etc. So how can Bonds get 2% less vote then Clemens? Is it racism? Probably not. The only other thing I can assume is that some of these writers are probably salty because Bonds didn't grant them an interview or was an asshole to them. Whichever one you think it may be, neither should hold any weight when determining who should make it into the HOF.

This bullshit notion that character and integrity played a part gets blown out of the water by the fact that the HOF currently has wife beaters, racists (members of the KKK), and admitted cheaters already enshrined. Hell, Ty Cobb is the biggest asshole this game has ever seen and he was a 1st ballot HOF with 98% of the vote.

The fact is that the HOF is a museum that should tell the story of baseball, should tell the story of great players dominating their respective eras and I fail to see why this "steroid era" is any different. Much like there is a story to be told about the Black Sox scandal or Cliff Flood being baseball's first FA or Jackie Robinson integrating baseball, the strike of 1994 coupled with the circumstantial evidence surrounding the offensive boom that took place shortly after that frankly SAVED the game can absolutely be told at Cooperstown. Guys like Bonds, Piazza, Clemens, Biggio were the best in their era and the HOF should show as such.

Everyone is baseball is guilty of turning a blind eye to what was going on, baseball writers included so it is completely hypocritical to me to see those same writers who glorified it 15 years ago to now take a moral stand. Where was your outrage in 1995? I didn't see ESPN or any other news station for that matter complain when they were LITERALLY stopping normal news broadcasting to cut to a Sosa or McGwire at bat in 1998. I didn't see the writers refuse to write non-stop about the HR chases that ultimately SAVED baseball. Hell, I'm pretty sure Pulitzers were won off the backs of these players yet I haven't heard any of these writers come out and return those awards.

So here we are...with a great number of great players that got shafted by a bunch of dip-shits that suddenly found the fucking sack to ride the moral high horse...the same writers that turned a blind eye when it was smack in front of them, the same writers that made money off these players in the form of guest appearances on networks or through their columns about these players or their successes are now pretentious enough to act as if they are the gatekeepers to integrity and character.

IDGAF if they are letting these players in next year, the bottom line is that if they are HOF next year, then they were HOF this year too. Nothing about their stats are going to change in the next 364 days to sway the vote. Every writer who thinks he is proving a point or punishing the players by not voting them in this year should be kicked in the taint...repeatedly.

Rep!