Here we go - Bonds, Clemens, Sosa on the Hall of Fame ballot

[HammerDown]

Raffy's numbers exploded when they should have been declining because he was juicing like a mofo. End of story. Everything Canseco said about him was true.

 

[gp956]

Pretty profound but do you think existing HOFers are willing to go out on a limb and be the first to endorse voting these guys in?

Not right away. I give these guys a couple of years before they realize that they're hurting themselves. Hank Aaron's stance is pivotal. The rest will fall in line with him.

 

[HammerDown]

he was just a better actor than everyone else

i am sure they were all on the same page......deny,deny,deny

What's so ironic is Canseco was the only one telling the truth. Sammy couldn't speak English, Raffy had his nose in the air, Big Mac sounded like a broken record and Schilling was the loud-mouth, self-absorbed asshole he's always been.

 

[bone3421]

Sure, there were many factors involved to explain Palmeiro's late career power jump, as there were for nearly every ball player of that era, i.e. more lively parks, narrower strike-zones, and the like. But all that means is that the numbers get adjusted - the same as one might adjust Wade Boogs' numbers for being a lefthanded hitter playing at Fenway.

i edited my response.....he was doing his balt. stint

yes there were multiple reasons i was just pointing out one


bottom line is they should all be in and i dont care what happened,if "everyone" was doing it then the playing field was level and they are the best of the generation which is what the hall should be

 

[HammerDown]

Not right away. I give these guys a couple of years before they realize that they're hurting themselves. Hank Aaron's stance is pivotal. The rest will fall in line with him.

Most will, but there are some hard-liners who won't budge and I don't think you can blame them when you look at it from their perspective.

 

[bone3421]

Raffy's numbers exploded when they should have been declining because he was juicing like a mofo. End of story. Everything Canseco said about him was true.

i went back to dbl check what i thought.....and was wrong.......he was in camden yard then

but the ballpark in arlington was built for left handed power

rf is listed as 318 at balt. so that probably helped his hr's

maybe he just clicked...his breakout year was when he was 28 (37 hr's 105 rbi) had seasons of 26 hr and 22 hr before that one (26,27)

josh hamilton,nelson cruz,alex gordon,michael morse....all recently had their breakout year around 28/27

 

[gp956]

Didn't mean that at all. Never even thought it. I guess if anything my number is just exaggerated but I do think that the vast majority of objective baseball fans would have to agree that Clemens and Bonds could have made the HOF without PEDs, whether they'd vote for them now or not. If you're going to let your dislike of the person get in the way, you'll disagree.

I'm not sure how they may feel about the nuanced point, i.e. HOF credentials but still wouldn't vote for them, but I know I was surprised by the number of baseball fans here who absolutely think any "cheaters" should be kept out of the hall.

 

[gp956]

i edited my response.....he was doing his balt. stint

yes there were multiple reasons i was just pointing out one


bottom line is they should all be in and i dont care what happened,if "everyone" was doing it then the playing field was level and they are the best of the generation which is what the hall should be

Sure. Even discounted, his numbers are hall worthy.

 

[HammerDown]

I'm not sure how they may fell about the nuanced point, i.e. HOF credentials but still wouldn't vote for them, but I know I was surprised by the number of baseball fans here who absolutely think any "cheaters" should be kept out of the hall.

Let's face it, career-long cheaters like Canseco don't deserve mention. But surely Clemens and Bonds are exceptions? And I'm surprised how many baseball fans really don't care at all who was juicing; in fact many of them just want to see Verlander-type performances every game and 73 HRs every season.

 

[gp956]

Most will, but there are some hard-liners who won't budge and I don't think you can blame them when you look at it from their perspective.

There's always hard-liners. Still, I'd bet most of them would have been sticking needles in their ass had they played in the 90's, the same way they scooped handfuls of greenies in the 60's.

 

[gp956]

Let's face it, career-long cheaters like Canseco don't deserve mention. But surely Clemens and Bonds are exceptions? And I'm surprised how many baseball fans really don't care at all who was juicing; in fact many of them just want to see Verlander-type performances every game and 73 HRs every season.

Not from my reading of many posts here. And, yeah, personally I see nothing wrong with using PEDs. Although, I also see nothing wrong with the players agreeing to ban them.

 

[HammerDown]

There's always hard-liners. Still, I'd bet most of them would have been sticking needles in their ass had they played in the 90's, the same way they scooped handfuls of greenies in the 60's.

Yeah, it's a good thing for most of them that they never had the temptation to resist. It's like me trying to get self-righteous and say I don't approve of the immoral lifestyle of Wilt Chamberlain and Magic when I know full well in their position I would have done the same, exact thing.

 

[bone3421]

Let's face it, career-long cheaters like Canseco don't deserve mention. But surely Clemens and Bonds are exceptions? And I'm surprised how many baseball fans really don't care at all who was juicing; in fact many of them just want to see Verlander-type performances every game and 73 HRs every season.

were the steroids bad..sure

but they also were not illegal and like many have stated before steroids dont help you hit a 98 mph fastball or a nasty breaking ball

i am glad they are now tested for,but we arent kicking people out for amphetamine,alcohol(prohibition)........so we open up every can of worms or just let the 90's/00's guys in if they were the best of the generation

 

[tzill]

Most will, but there are some hard-liners who won't budge and I don't think you can blame them when you look at it from their perspective.

Their hopped-up on greenies perspective?

Or their sanctimonious "steroids are the worst thing ever" perspective?

There is no evidence that steroids improve baseball performance. Nobody seems to want to talk about that, everyone assumes that steroids make hitters hit better. The evidence is that they don't.

 

[tzill]

Raffy's numbers exploded when they should have been declining because he was juicing like a mofo. End of story. Everything Canseco said about him was true.

And the myth continues....

 

[tzill]

Yeah, it's a good thing for most of them that they never had the temptation to resist. It's like me trying to get self-righteous and say I don't approve of the immoral lifestyle of Wilt Chamberlain and Magic when I know full well in their position I would have done the same, exact thing.

We agree.

signed,

Kirby Puckett HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF

 

[HammerDown]

And the myth continues....

Okay, the juice had nothing to do with Raffy's extraordinary late-career surge in numbers. So please remind me why he risked his reputation for 'roids?

 

[gp956]

We agree.

signed,

Kirby Puckett HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF

For sure.

 

[HammerDown]

We agree.

signed,

Kirby Puckett HOF
Nolan Ryan HOF

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[tzill]

Okay, the juice had nothing to do with Raffy's extraordinary late-career surge in numbers. So please remind me why he risked his reputation for 'roids?

The same reason Bonds or any of the others did...misinformation. Remember, corollary isn't causation.