D-Nucleus Rank: Pats 18th Overall

[TKO]

The Seahawks had more chips to start with?

Since Carroll has been the head coach, they have drafted the following defensive personnel:

2010 - Earl Thomas (Pick #14, All-Pro, Potential DPOY), Walter Thurmond (starting cornerback with Browner out, slot corner when Browner is on the field, 4th round), Kam Chancellor (5th round, starting safety)

2011 - KJ Wright (Round 4, starting linebacker), Richard Sherman (Round 5, possibly the best cornerback in the NFL)

2012 - Bruce Irvin (1st round draft pick, starting defensive end, a very good situational pass rusher and former Briz Binkie), Bobby Wagner (Round 2, a sure-fire top 10 linebacker in the NFL), Jaye Howard (4th round pick, now a top reserve with the Chiefs)

2013 - Jordan Hill and Jesse Williams (Hill is the top reserve defensive tackle on their roster and Williams should be a starting defensive tackle for them in the next year or two).

I count seven starters (Thomas, Thurmond, Chancellor, Wright, Sherman, Irvin, Wagner) since Carroll has been named head coach on the defensive side of the ball and this doesn't include their other draft picks who are starting as well or are viewed as bright and promising prospects (i.e. Russell Wilson, Golden Tate, James Carpenter, Robert Turbin, Christian Michael, Anthony McCoy, and Kris Durham (now with Detroit and looks like a #2 wide receiver).

Including Wilson and Tate, the Seahawks have drafted 9 of their 22 starters since 2010 with seven of them on the defensive side of the ball.

The Seahawks have clearly drafted well and their defense was built based on Carroll's drafts and not because they had "chips" to start with.

What he said...

Let's also not forget Belichick has been "rebuilding" the D since 2009 and had a year head start on Carroll.

 

[JDM]

What he said...

Let's also not forget Belichick has been "rebuilding" the D since 2009 and had a year head start on Carroll.

In terms of the typical value chart, that extra year added less value than Seattle being 6th in the draft order.

 

[TKO]

In terms of the typical value chart, that extra year added less value than Seattle being 6th in the draft order.

The draft chart is yesterday's news. It depends on a lot more variables than just the number of the swapped draft picks in a trade.

That being said...If you want to look at the value of Belchick's actual top 100 DEFENSIVE picks in that extra year...2009...the period at the end of this sentence might be worth more than all of them.

Chung, Brace, Butler and McKenzie.

Try looking at when Mayo was taken in 2008.

 

[JDM]

Obviously it's far from perfect. But it's the best measure of the value of draft picks there is. In this case it's fairly accurate. Picking sixth means your second round pick is closer to our first round pick than your first round pick is. That difference is substantial.

 

[Drawmeomg]

Going back to it - 18th seems way too low. How can a unit that was top 5 in almost every meaningful category before injuries to two of its three best players - and is still set to be top 10 in points for the second consecutive season, despite the injuries, by the way - possibly be below average for personnel?

I mean, does anyone really think our playcalling is just so damn amazing that it turns a below average unit into an incredible one? We just have the best defensive coordinator in the league in Matt Patricia - that's the position we're gonna go with here? The Jets, Packers, Eagles, and Bills have better defensive players than we do? I don't buy it.

 

[TKO]

Going back to it - 18th seems way too low. How can a unit that was top 5 in almost every meaningful category before injuries to two of its three best players - and is still set to be top 10 in points for the second consecutive season, despite the injuries, by the way - possibly be below average for personnel?

I mean, does anyone really think our playcalling is just so damn amazing that it turns a below average unit into an incredible one? We just have the best defensive coordinator in the league in Matt Patricia - that's the position we're gonna go with here? The Jets, Packers, Eagles, and Bills have better defensive players than we do? I don't buy it.

You have to keep in mind the question the writer was trying to answer. It was an assessment of the defensive players, not stats.

"If I am the best coaching candidate on the market, which defensive personnel would I most want to take over?"

 

[JDM]

And putting the patriots below average is just laughable, with that question in mind.

 

[TKO]

This is just another post in a nauseating and continual attempt to prove Seattle is better at drafting. It is a tired, overdone, overblown, and silly argument but even attempting to argue the point will result in trouble.

Drafting is a team process and the better you are the more difficult it is to acquire talent in the draft or even in free agency. The only thing that counts is team record and the Pats win that hands down. I do love the talent on Seattle's defense but how long can they keep it together and besides Seattle has a pass rush problem since they are behind Pats in sacks and since Pats have a pass rush problem according to TKO the Seahawks must have a pass rush problem.

By the way my little personal troll...

Adding up stats is not always the most telling way of assessing the best of anything in the NFL.

Get this through your thick homer head if you can:

Brady has 24 TD passes through 15 games -- Peyton Manning has 51 TD passes through 15 games.

Is Manning more than twice as good as Brady at QB?

Stop being a homer-moron-troll.

 

[TKO]

And putting the patriots below average is just laughable, with that question in mind.

Where would you put them?

 

[JDM]

Solely talent, ignoring injuries or execution? Somewhere around where they finished in scoring D. General area of 10. Coaching may have cancelled out the injuries. It wasn't more beneficial than the injuries were detrimental.

 

[Bruschi_Warrior]

Solely talent, ignoring injuries or execution? Somewhere around where they finished in scoring D. General area of 10. Coaching may have cancelled out the injuries. It wasn't more beneficial than the injuries were detrimental.

They are NOT a top 10 team from a strict personnel point of view.

They are behind every NFC West team, Carolina, Kansas City, Cincinnati, and I can certainly make arguments for bad offensive teams that simply have good defenses including Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Tampa Bay.

I would rank New England right at #13 which is above average but still not elite.

 

[Bruschi_Warrior]

Going back to it - 18th seems way too low. How can a unit that was top 5 in almost every meaningful category before injuries to two of its three best players - and is still set to be top 10 in points for the second consecutive season, despite the injuries, by the way - possibly be below average for personnel?

I mean, does anyone really think our playcalling is just so damn amazing that it turns a below average unit into an incredible one? We just have the best defensive coordinator in the league in Matt Patricia - that's the position we're gonna go with here? The Jets, Packers, Eagles, and Bills have better defensive players than we do? I don't buy it.

I agree Draw - from a personnel perspective, they are not 18th or wherever they were. I would rank them at 13 and I do think that the Eagles have a better defense than the Patriots as well as the Bills, even though you wouldn't know it because of their offensive issues this year.

 

[Bruschi_Warrior]

Where would you put them?

Krafty - he is not going to answer because he is one of those guys who thinks that he knows something but continuously provides no empirical information or data that backs up his assertions.

 

[TKO]

I agree Draw - from a personnel perspective, they are not 18th or wherever they were. I would rank them at 13 and I do think that the Eagles have a better defense than the Patriots as well as the Bills, even though you wouldn't know it because of their offensive issues this year.

The article was opinion so IMO...I'd put them no higher than 10th no lower than 15th.

Stats are not a good way to evaluate the article because like you said, it's about talent.

 

[TKO]

Krafty - he is not going to answer because he is one of those guys who thinks that he knows something but continuously provides no empirical information or data that backs up his assertions.

LOL! Can he use anectdotal evidence...?

 

[Bruschi_Warrior]

The article was opinion so IMO...I'd put them no higher than 10th no lower than 15th.

Stats are not a good way to evaluate the article because like you said, it's about talent.

I agree Krafty and as we all know, Tom Brady, the 199th pick in the 2000 NFL draft, doesn't really care about JDM's stupid assertion that the draft board value chart matters and if it wasn't for Tom Brady, the 199th pick of the 2000 NFL Draft, the Patriots defense, as constituted, would be ranked a tad lower on this list.

 

[Bruschi_Warrior]

LOL! Can he use anectdotal evidence...?

Krafty - I don't think he knows what anecdotal evidence is.

 

[TKO]

Solely talent, ignoring injuries or execution? Somewhere around where they finished in scoring D. General area of 10. Coaching may have cancelled out the injuries. It wasn't more beneficial than the injuries were detrimental.

IMO...if you want to just look at stats, you can't properly assess talent because there are too many variables.

For example. Player A runs for ten yards-- Player B runs for ten yards.

The NFL adds up the yards and both players are tied and just as good stats-wise.

However, Player A ran for ten yards when his team was behind by 30 points in the fourth quarter and the defense was playing the pass while Player B ran for ten yards when his team had a slim lead and was trying to run out the clock to win.

Clearly, I'd say Player B had the better run and possibly the better talent.

 

[TKO]

Krafty - I don't think he knows what anecdotal evidence is.

LOL! He might be saying "There once was a man from Havana who tried to play the piana"...right now thinking it's the start to an anecdote.

 

[TKO]

I agree Krafty and as we all know, Tom Brady, the 199th pick in the 2000 NFL draft, doesn't really care about JDM's stupid assertion that the draft board value chart matters and if it wasn't for Tom Brady, the 199th pick of the 2000 NFL Draft, the Patriots defense, as constituted, would be ranked a tad lower on this list.

I think Bobby Grier used that chart...