Cleveland Browns Ongoing Thread

[Across The Field]

I actually answer direct questions even though I think I run the show.....

1) I probably would. Philly obviously liked Berry's work as they hired him in a VP role. With him gone, though, I'd want Sashi to hire a different credible GM....and with all those assets he provided it shouldn't have been too tough.

2) I think they had a lot to do with being where they are now so absolutely.

Your turn again....you said you wanted Dorsey in 2016. You seem to think he'd have improved the team quickly. Do you just not enjoy having Garrett and Baker on the team?

Cleveland has had money and draft capital before. Believe it or not, talented GMs with long track records of success aren't just hanging out waiting for jobs. We were lucky.

Objectively, I would be just as happy if we had Pat Mahomes and Chris Jones, if not happier. They both rated higher than Baker and Garrett this year, and if we had Dorsey in 2016, there's a very real chance we'd have both of them, considering we had the picks to get both of them and Dorsey hand-picked them both.

 

[dtgold88]

How old are you?

49. You?

What's next? The "you never played the sport" card?

 

[Across The Field]

You are losing it because you think all he does is trade down when he did so a whopping 2 times and also traded UP once

And of course you diminish moves he made while making excuses for moves/players made/acquired by Dorsey.

You also seem to think no way Sashi could have helped out if he stayed. Never mind he tried to fix the line once in FA and added Zeitler/Tretter. In Dorsey's first chance there he added Hubbard. who did better?

I don't think you know what the term "losing it" means. Me not acknowledging one time when he traded up a few spots isn't that. You keep bragging about him trading back and acting as if it was such a savvy move, when in all actuality it's happened dozens of times over the years, even by the Browns. It takes a real GM to actually use the picks, which luckily we have now.

Our offensive line was better in 2018 than in 2017, and that was without Joe Thomas. Why was that? Could it have had something to do with the coaches Dorsey hired on to lead them? But no, it was all Sashi, right?

 

[Across The Field]

49. You?

What's next? The "you never played the sport" card?

Nope, don't care if you played football. Just wondering.

 

[dtgold88]

Cleveland has had money and draft capital before. Believe it or not, talented GMs with long track records of success aren't just hanging out waiting for jobs. We were lucky.

Objectively, I would be just as happy if we had Pat Mahomes and Chris Jones, if not happier. They both rated higher than Baker and Garrett this year, and if we had Dorsey in 2016, there's a very real chance we'd have both of them, considering we had the picks to get both of them and Dorsey hand-picked them both.

Good points.

 

[dtgold88]

I don't think you know what the term "losing it" means. Me not acknowledging one time when he traded up a few spots isn't that. You keep bragging about him trading back and acting as if it was such a savvy move, when in all actuality it's happened dozens of times over the years, even by the Browns. It takes a real GM to actually use the picks, which luckily we have now.

Our offensive line was better in 2018 than in 2017, and that was without Joe Thomas. Why was that? Could it have had something to do with the coaches Dorsey hired on to lead them? But no, it was all Sashi, right?

It's about on the same level as you using a retarded reference when you were the one who could understand a simple question.

Our line was better because we had a QB who made quick decisions (and Baker gets credit, sure). But I'm hoping you don't think Hubbard is a better O-lineman than Zeitler and Tretter (especially after, if memory serves, saying you didn't like the pickup).

You really can't just say Sashi did better finding FA lineman? Wow. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised as you seem to think Dorsey could select player he likes on picks he didn't have.

 

[dtgold88]

Nope, don't care if you played football. Just wondering.

Just asked as the "how old are you" card often comes out for the same reason as the "you never played the sport" card.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Saw a really good article and one thing that stuck out was...

"Sashi Brown’s legacy rests in not only gutting the roster, but stripping it down to its skeleton. In doing so, he opened up cap space and accumulated draft picks.

Fine, but cap space and draft picks don’t actually win games. Those assets eventually morph into players.

And when he tried to build up the roster, he made a trade for Jamie Collins, signing him to a massive extension.

The decision turned out to be a huge mistake."

 

[Shanemansj13]

Drafting: Foul
When it came to drafting, Brown mostly failed. The 2016 draft yielded Corey Coleman, a bust who has struggled to stay on rosters after being traded by Cleveland during the preseason.

Fourteen players were chosen that year. Joe Schobert, a fourth-rounder out of Wisconsin is the best player. He’s established himself as the leader of the defense, although he’s not a game changer.

Of the three receivers taken in the draft, only one has contributed in the turnaround. Rashard Higgins may be a part of the future, while Ricardo Louis spent all season on IR. Jordan Payton was a misfire.

The next disappoint would be Emmanuel Ogbah. Rounds consist of 32 picks, and Ogbah was the 32nd overall player taken because that was the year the Patriots forfeited their pick due to “Deflategate.”

So technically, he was the first pick in the second round. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s failed to become an impact player. Ogbah is a fine player, but when you consider the Browns passed on Michael Thomas when a lot people would’ve drafted Thomas from their recliner makes the pick more painful.

The following season, Brown got it right, picking Myles Garrett. The defensive end is trending toward a game changing player and might hit that status in year three. Give Brown credit for making the pick, but how much credit can you give a guy who took the player that was the consensus No. 1 pick for the entirety of the 2016 college season?

Brown had another first-round pick that drat, selecting Jabrill Peppers, and then David Njoku.

The jury is still out on these two players. Peppers was out of place playing free safety in his rookie year, and moved closer to the ball. Despite playing strong safety, he was just fourth on the team in tackles.

Aside from the penultimate contest of the 2018 season against Cincinnati, he was hardly thought of as an impact player.

Njoku continues to trend up, even if he doesn’t have eye-popping stats. He’s only 22 and should continue to improve.

The other pick Brown hit on was that of fourth-rounder Larry Ogunjobi. His 5.5 sacks were second on the team last season, and he spent the final month of the season playing with injuries.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Passing on QBs: Foul
It can’t be lost on Brown that he passed up three franchise quarterbacks during his two years assembling the roster.

Injuries have taken some of the shine off Carson Wentz recently, but when he was playing well as rookie, Browns Backers around the world would collectively fall ill.

And then there was Patrick Mahomes and DeShaun Watson.

Nobody would’ve passed on Garrett for Mahomes, but knowing what you know now, that’s another miss that would’ve lived in infamy had things not worked out with Baker Mayfield the following year.

After Mahomes went 10th, the Browns had the chance to draft DeShaun Watson, who had the Texans in the playoffs this year as the No. 2 seed. The Browns clearly had no interest in him, trading down to 25th while also securing the fourth pick in the 2018 draft, which became Denzel Ward.

Hindsight is everything on this one because of one man: Mayfield. Had John Dorseynot chosen the Heisman winner, uncertainty would still be live and well in Cleveland.

It’s because the quarterback is in place that the Browns are expected to end their playoff drought, which dates back to the 2002 season.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Trades: Fair and Foul
If there was something Brown did, it was nix the trade for A.J. McCarron. He failed to send the trade to the league on time, saving the Browns a second and third-round pick. I’ll admit, it was frustrating at the time because the Browns looked like fools.

No return on those saved picks though, as Dorsey turned those selections in Austin Corbett and Chad Thomas.

There’s also the acquisition of Brock Osweiler, but that brings into question chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta. How much power does he have?

After a report surfacing this offseason regarding the Browns’ coaching situation, you might think its more than one would’ve guessed after analytics produced a 1-31 record over two seasons.

The trade for Brock Osweiler, which also set the Browns up with a second pick reaks of Podesta’s moneyball style. That pick became running back Nick Chubb.

There’s also the aforementioned trading down in the 2017 draft. The Browns could’ve had Watson, but by trading down, Cleveland got Jabrill Peppers and then Ward a year later. It’s looking good for now, but only because of Mayfield.

It’s always been mysterious as to how Brown was the only front office fall guy as the Browns embarked on their “perfect season,” especially since Hue Jackson didn’t even get fired after the “perfect season.”

But he was. And when John Dorsey took over the job, the draft all of a sudden became more productive.

Four players became instantly productive in Mayfield, Chubb, Ward and Antonio Callaway. The draft may yield more in Corbett and Denard Avery.

 

[dtgold88]

Saw a really good article and one thing that stuck out was...

"Sashi Brown’s legacy rests in not only gutting the roster, but stripping it down to its skeleton. In doing so, he opened up cap space and accumulated draft picks.

Fine, but cap space and draft picks don’t actually win games. Those assets eventually morph into players.

And when he tried to build up the roster, he made a trade for Jamie Collins, signing him to a massive extension.

The decision turned out to be a huge mistake."

"Huge mistake" Guy was one of their better players after they got him and much of 2017. solid player but agree a headcase when not motivated.

And cap space and picks are what helped lure Dorsey to the job. what part of 4 year rebuild diod you not understand?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Pretty much things we have been saying, Sashi deserves some credit but he made a lot of bonehead moves and Dorsey hasn't been perfect but he has hit a lot of homeruns in his career while Sashi traded down and up and passed on a LOT of great players. Which ended up working out for the most part on some of those but the main point is HE DIDN'T DRAFT THE STARS. You can give credit for him getting picks but when push came to shove he wasn't very good at making picks when he was with the Browns. That is a fact.

 

[dtgold88]

Drafting: Foul
When it came to drafting, Brown mostly failed. The 2016 draft yielded Corey Coleman, a bust who has struggled to stay on rosters after being traded by Cleveland during the preseason.

Fourteen players were chosen that year. Joe Schobert, a fourth-rounder out of Wisconsin is the best player. He’s established himself as the leader of the defense, although he’s not a game changer.

Of the three receivers taken in the draft, only one has contributed in the turnaround. Rashard Higgins may be a part of the future, while Ricardo Louis spent all season on IR. Jordan Payton was a misfire.

The next disappoint would be Emmanuel Ogbah. Rounds consist of 32 picks, and Ogbah was the 32nd overall player taken because that was the year the Patriots forfeited their pick due to “Deflategate.”

So technically, he was the first pick in the second round. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that he’s failed to become an impact player. Ogbah is a fine player, but when you consider the Browns passed on Michael Thomas when a lot people would’ve drafted Thomas from their recliner makes the pick more painful.

The following season, Brown got it right, picking Myles Garrett. The defensive end is trending toward a game changing player and might hit that status in year three. Give Brown credit for making the pick, but how much credit can you give a guy who took the player that was the consensus No. 1 pick for the entirety of the 2016 college season?

Brown had another first-round pick that drat, selecting Jabrill Peppers, and then David Njoku.

The jury is still out on these two players. Peppers was out of place playing free safety in his rookie year, and moved closer to the ball. Despite playing strong safety, he was just fourth on the team in tackles.

Aside from the penultimate contest of the 2018 season against Cincinnati, he was hardly thought of as an impact player.

Njoku continues to trend up, even if he doesn’t have eye-popping stats. He’s only 22 and should continue to improve.

The other pick Brown hit on was that of fourth-rounder Larry Ogunjobi. His 5.5 sacks were second on the team last season, and he spent the final month of the season playing with injuries.

Fair assessment. Shall we talk about Corbett and Chad Thomas as of now? shall we talk about Dorsey releasing a productive Nassib to keep Thomas?

All FOs make good picks and bad ones. Coleman pick was a disaster and of course meant they were not taking Michael Thomas....who pretty much the entire league passed on.

 

[Shanemansj13]

"Huge mistake" Guy was one of their better players after they got him and much of 2017. solid player but agree a headcase when not motivated.

And cap space and picks are what helped lure Dorsey to the job. what part of 4 year rebuild diod you not understand?

Dorsey has turned this into a 2 year rebuild and like I have acknowledged Sashi has helped bc of the cap space and picks. You don't win bc of CAP SPACE AND PICKS. You cleared aren't grasping that, you don't win games bc you have cap space and picks. Dorsey, with his drafting skills, has definitely made Sashi look better than he was.

Bottomline.

 

[dtgold88]

Trades: Fair and Foul
If there was something Brown did, it was nix the trade for A.J. McCarron. He failed to send the trade to the league on time, saving the Browns a second and third-round pick. I’ll admit, it was frustrating at the time because the Browns looked like fools.

No return on those saved picks though, as Dorsey turned those selections in Austin Corbett and Chad Thomas.

There’s also the acquisition of Brock Osweiler, but that brings into question chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta. How much power does he have?

After a report surfacing this offseason regarding the Browns’ coaching situation, you might think its more than one would’ve guessed after analytics produced a 1-31 record over two seasons.

The trade for Brock Osweiler, which also set the Browns up with a second pick reaks of Podesta’s moneyball style. That pick became running back Nick Chubb.

There’s also the aforementioned trading down in the 2017 draft. The Browns could’ve had Watson, but by trading down, Cleveland got Jabrill Peppers and then Ward a year later. It’s looking good for now, but only because of Mayfield.

It’s always been mysterious as to how Brown was the only front office fall guy as the Browns embarked on their “perfect season,” especially since Hue Jackson didn’t even get fired after the “perfect season.”

But he was. And when John Dorsey took over the job, the draft all of a sudden became more productive.

Four players became instantly productive in Mayfield, Chubb, Ward and Antonio Callaway. The draft may yield more in Corbett and Denard Avery.

Did you notice the "no return on the saved picks" as they were used on Corbett and Thomas?

I am 100% certain you ripped Sashi at the time like most did when that trade didn't go through. You actually believed an attorney who had made 20+ deals forgot the protocol. Amiright?

 

[dtgold88]

would add not enough credit given for that Osweiler deal. This was something that had really only been done in the NFL. Never in the NBA. Taking a bad contract along with a pick. Brilliant.

 

[dtgold88]

Pretty much things we have been saying, Sashi deserves some credit but he made a lot of bonehead moves and Dorsey hasn't been perfect but he has hit a lot of homeruns in his career while Sashi traded down and up and passed on a LOT of great players. Which ended up working out for the most part on some of those but the main point is HE DIDN'T DRAFT THE STARS. You can give credit for him getting picks but when push came to shove he wasn't very good at making picks when he was with the Browns. That is a fact.

Garrett is a star. Looks like Dorsey has taken 2 stars with us in Baker and Ward. Sashi took 1. Dorsey also had 2 picks in top 5. Sashi had 1. I think Chubb might be a star, but also think Ogunjobi has a chance.

Also a fact Dorsey had 20+ years experience. Sashi had none. Did pretty good for a guy with so little experience in the role. Don't think so? How did Belichick, Ozzie, Pioli, Savage, etc do early in their careers here?

 

[dtgold88]

Dorsey has turned this into a 2 year rebuild and like I have acknowledged Sashi has helped bc of the cap space and picks. You don't win bc of CAP SPACE AND PICKS. You cleared aren't grasping that, you don't win games bc you have cap space and picks. Dorsey, with his drafting skills, has definitely made Sashi look better than he was.

Bottomline.

with no cap space and extra picks likely there is no Landry, OBJ, ward, Chubb, etc.

Bottom line.

 

[Across The Field]

It's about on the same level as you using a retarded reference when you were the one who could understand a simple question.

Our line was better because we had a QB who made quick decisions (and Baker gets credit, sure). But I'm hoping you don't think Hubbard is a better O-lineman than Zeitler and Tretter (especially after, if memory serves, saying you didn't like the pickup).

You really can't just say Sashi did better finding FA lineman? Wow. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised as you seem to think Dorsey could select player he likes on picks he didn't have.

You question was if I liked Baker and Garrett. That question is absolutely retarded and everyone but you knows it.

...did you miss the part where I said Dorsey actually brought in good coaches who knew how to properly utilize the OL? How did you miss that?