Cleveland Browns Ongoing Thread

[dtgold88]

So now Baker is no better than Cody Kessler? Are you serious with this comparison?

Not sure what the plan was with Chad Thomas, but he was a rookie sitting behind 2 vets. It happens. For the 426th time, I've never said Dorsey bats 1.000 with his picks.

You keep using "football guy" as if it means something. Mangini and Homlgren did shitty jobs, but stop using "football guy" as if it is proving some point of yours.

He did a complete tear down, and we fans suffered for it for the worst 2-game stretch in NFL history. I've said this before to you, tearing a team down and accumulating draft picks is much, much easier than building one up by hitting on trades/FA signings and nailing draft picks.

Again, Berry isn't a GM. I highly doubt Sashi knew coming in to that job that his role was going to be to tear the team down and then immediately get fired. What he did helped an actually talented GM build the Browns into what they are now. I've never argued that.

I'm going by your "logic". You downplayed Kessler's play because it was against poor defenses. If you want to be consistent, shouldn't we do the same with Baker?

I don't think so. I thought Baker was exceptional. I wish you'd make your "rules" and stick to them.

Yeah..we really suffered. I so wish they could have done the usual and won 3-6 games those seasons. Because those were fun seasons. Who would you like to replace Garrett and Baker with under that scenario? When a team tears down what is already a 3-13 roster you expected what? Improvement?

I've said this before...sure the actual work of tearing it down might be easier, but clearly actually having the balls to do it is not, as no one before them tried it.

Did Sashi know he'd be a scapegoat for a teardown that actually worked? Agree....probably not.

So, yes, you wish they kept things rolling as they were and gone, say, 4-12 then 5-11 or 6-10? You don't like Baker here, I guess.

 

[dtgold88]

I've never once complained about what Sashi did. What's absurd is that you're coming to that conclusion. I'm saying he doesn't deserve credit for Dorsey's work.

Also, if you think the Eagles came to Cleveland with an offer of a mid-late 1, a 2, and garbage players, you probably don't know how these sort of trades work these days.

But you make disparaging remarks like this one - "What he did helped an actually talented GM build the Browns into what they are now. I've never argued that."

How about thanking him for setting the team up for a guy like Dorsey to WANT to take the job and be able to get eh QB he wanted as opposed to hoping the right guy would fall to him.

You still must think the commish really likes Dorsey and he could have just said, "excuse me...I really want Baker and, oh yeah...I'd like to take another guy I like at #4. I realize we don't have the pick, but pretty please?"

 

[Across The Field]

I'm going by your "logic". You downplayed Kessler's play because it was against poor defenses. If you want to be consistent, shouldn't we do the same with Baker?

I don't think so. I thought Baker was exceptional. I wish you'd make your "rules" and stick to them.

Yeah..we really suffered. I so wish they could have done the usual and won 3-6 games those seasons. Because those were fun seasons. Who would you like to replace Garrett and Baker with under that scenario? When a team tears down what is already a 3-13 roster you expected what? Improvement?

I've said this before...sure the actual work of tearing it down might be easier, but clearly actually having the balls to do it is not, as no one before them tried it.

Did Sashi know he'd be a scapegoat for a teardown that actually worked? Agree....probably not.

So, yes, you wish they kept things rolling as they were and gone, say, 4-12 then 5-11 or 6-10? You don't like Baker here, I guess.

3 TDs at Baltimore (should've been 4), 2 TD vs. Den, 2 TD vs. KC. 3 teams ranked in the top 12 defenses in terms of QB rating allowed. I'd say those weren't bad showings, much better than anything Kessler did, so we can probably drop this idiotic conversation.

If we had Dorsey in 2016, we would not have gone 1-31 in our next 32 games. If he had all those picks, we would've likely been a playoff team last year. The guy makes big moves and builds teams fast.

So since you agree it's easier to tear a team down rather than build it up, your only complement of Sashi is his balls then.

 

[Across The Field]

But you make disparaging remarks like this one - "What he did helped an actually talented GM build the Browns into what they are now. I've never argued that."

How about thanking him for setting the team up for a guy like Dorsey to WANT to take the job and be able to get eh QB he wanted as opposed to hoping the right guy would fall to him.

You still must think the commish really likes Dorsey and he could have just said, "excuse me...I really want Baker and, oh yeah...I'd like to take another guy I like at #4. I realize we don't have the pick, but pretty please?"

That's not disparaging, it's simply a fact. There is no emotion tied to it.

Thank you for tanking Sashi, something damn near anyone could have done. Please stop acting as if people don't realize he traded for picks. I could have done that, no questions asked. All he had to do was say "We're willing to trade down". He was bombarded with a huge offer from Philly and it was an easy "yes". I love having Baker, no questions asked. Again, trading down repeatedly and making your team awful takes next to no actual GM skill.

This is getting boring and redundant. Can you please just state whatever your case is so we can move on?

 

[Shanemansj13]

From what I am hearing Sashi deserves more credit than Dorsey. It just simply isn't true. Did Sashi play a part, of course he did? I'm not sure what you want me to say. Dorsey's success is only bc of Sashi bc he set up everything for him. Again, not true. Sashi never had his legitimate chance and he did a good job with what he had and got a stud.

Sashi had balls for trading down and getting future picks with a team that didn't win a game? But Dorsey didn't have balls to take Baker Mayfield at 1 or Ward at 4 who weren't projected that high. Taking Baker at 1 was the ballsy move of the draft.

I just don't know what you are debating about anymore. If Sashi gets some of the credit and you don't believe he shouldn't be getting more credit than Dorsey than it means we all agree.

 

[dtgold88]

3 TDs at Baltimore (should've been 4), 2 TD vs. Den, 2 TD vs. KC. 3 teams ranked in the top 12 defenses in terms of QB rating allowed. I'd say those weren't bad showings, much better than anything Kessler did, so we can probably drop this idiotic conversation.

If we had Dorsey in 2016, we would not have gone 1-31 in our next 32 games. If he had all those picks, we would've likely been a playoff team last year. The guy makes big moves and builds teams fast.

So since you agree it's easier to tear a team down rather than build it up, your only complement of Sashi is his balls then.

You are hilarious. Trying to say anything other than KC was an awful defense last season. "much better"? counting dropped TDs? Again, hilarious. Cannot count how many times you've made excuses for Dorsey guys but don't do the same for Sashi guys.

My favorite was that no-name KC guy who was a project. Nothing was expected. So it was OK his next big play will be his first (if he's even still in the NFL).

Kessler had a 336 yard, 2 TD performance against Tennessee (an actual decent defense). Does he get to count dropped passes, too?

You think Kessler or Baker had a better supporting cast to work with? You like Landry/Chubb or Pryor/Crow better?

And, no, none of this is to say Kessler is on his level. That's whay he was picked 93rd and not first.

and I agree, of course we don't go 1-31. Dorsey does not have the stomach for a complete teardown. We probably do what other football guys do and win 6-9 games those 2 seasons....and do not have Garrett nor Baker.

My complement to Sashi is he had a plan, stuck to it and here's a flash....it looks like it worked. Did Dorsey help? Of course. In fact, he helped a ton.

I'm just not one who thinks in order to heap praise on Dorsey I have to tear down Sashi.

 

[dtgold88]

That's not disparaging, it's simply a fact. There is no emotion tied to it.

Thank you for tanking Sashi, something damn near anyone could have done. Please stop acting as if people don't realize he traded for picks. I could have done that, no questions asked. All he had to do was say "We're willing to trade down". He was bombarded with a huge offer from Philly and it was an easy "yes". I love having Baker, no questions asked. Again, trading down repeatedly and making your team awful takes next to no actual GM skill.

This is getting boring and redundant. Can you please just state whatever your case is so we can move on?

I have...you keep ignoring it. My case is it's so easy yet no football guy before him was willing to do it. They all kept overpaid, aging vets to win an extra few meaningless games every season and worsen their draft pick.

Mangini traded down to let the Jets draft his QB. He went all the way back to the middle of round 1, picked up a 2 and some Jets castoffs. Not all trades are alike

Weird you wont answer my questions...

1) Did you think a tear down of a 3-13 roster would lead to a better season?
2) do you wish they did the usual and won 3-6 games?
3) If yes to 2, are you just not a fan of having Garrett and Baker on the team?

 

[dtgold88]

From what I am hearing Sashi deserves more credit than Dorsey. It just simply isn't true. Did Sashi play a part, of course he did? I'm not sure what you want me to say. Dorsey's success is only bc of Sashi bc he set up everything for him. Again, not true. Sashi never had his legitimate chance and he did a good job with what he had and got a stud.

Sashi had balls for trading down and getting future picks with a team that didn't win a game? But Dorsey didn't have balls to take Baker Mayfield at 1 or Ward at 4 who weren't projected that high. Taking Baker at 1 was the ballsy move of the draft.

I just don't know what you are debating about anymore. If Sashi gets some of the credit and you don't believe he shouldn't be getting more credit than Dorsey than it means we all agree.

If this is what you are hearing you are having trouble reading and understanding. Only said he deserves as much or more credit than Dorsey when it comes to extra picks. Please tell me if either statement can be debated....

1) We don't know what sashi would have done if he were to pick at 4 and 35 last year
2) We can be 100% certain if he did not have the 4 and 35 picks, ward and Chubb could not have been taken in those spots.

Agree, Dorsey deserves a ton of credit for the 3 early picks last year (jury still out on Corbett). I do think there were other QB starved teams, though, who would have taken Baker. Just because the so-called experts were not reporting it does not mean they wouldn't. In fact, because they were not reporting it makes it more likely they might have...teams tend not to tell anyone their true plans.

Ward also a great pick and I think he'll be a star. But come on...DB was a huge need. Far more than DE when you already have Myles on one side.

 

[Across The Field]

You are hilarious. Trying to say anything other than KC was an awful defense last season. "much better"? counting dropped TDs? Again, hilarious. Cannot count how many times you've made excuses for Dorsey guys but don't do the same for Sashi guys.

My favorite was that no-name KC guy who was a project. Nothing was expected. So it was OK his next big play will be his first (if he's even still in the NFL).

Kessler had a 336 yard, 2 TD performance against Tennessee (an actual decent defense). Does he get to count dropped passes, too?

You think Kessler or Baker had a better supporting cast to work with? You like Landry/Chubb or Pryor/Crow better?

And, no, none of this is to say Kessler is on his level. That's whay he was picked 93rd and not first.

and I agree, of course we don't go 1-31. Dorsey does not have the stomach for a complete teardown. We probably do what other football guys do and win 6-9 games those 2 seasons....and do not have Garrett nor Baker.

My complement to Sashi is he had a plan, stuck to it and here's a flash....it looks like it worked. Did Dorsey help? Of course. In fact, he helped a ton.

I'm just not one who thinks in order to heap praise on Dorsey I have to tear down Sashi.

I can't believe you think my believing Baker was really good while Kessler isn't is just because I'm "making excuses for Dorsey guys". You are losing all credibility by continuing this conversation.


Regarding Kpassagnon:

Does Tanoh Kpassagnon need a change of scenery from the Chiefs?

But Kpassagnon was drafted as a project. Coming out of Villanova, an FCS school, he was supposed to need more time than most to adjust to life in the NFL. If most players need one year, Kpassagnon likely needed two, which means he’s really on time.

I haven't torn down Sashi, by the way. I've said he doesn't deserve the credit Dorsey does for where we are today. You've taken everything I've said and blown it entirely out of proportion. Also, please provide me a link that says tearing the team down, getting a bunch of picks, and lucking into Dorsey being available was the "plan". If Dorsey didn't just happen to be available, where do you actually think we'd be right now? I can say with all confidence we wouldn't have Landry, Randall, OBJ, and probably not many of the other players we have.

 

[Across The Field]

I have...you keep ignoring it. My case is it's so easy yet no football guy before him was willing to do it. They all kept overpaid, aging vets to win an extra few meaningless games every season and worsen their draft pick.

Mangini traded down to let the Jets draft his QB. He went all the way back to the middle of round 1, picked up a 2 and some Jets castoffs. Not all trades are alike

Weird you wont answer my questions...

1) Did you think a tear down of a 3-13 roster would lead to a better season?
2) do you wish they did the usual and won 3-6 games?
3) If yes to 2, are you just not a fan of having Garrett and Baker on the team?

BEING WILLING TO TORPEDO YOUR CAREER DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO ME. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT.

DORSEY IS NOT MANGINI OR HOLMGREN. HE IS EXPONENTIALLY MORE ACCOMPLISHED AS A GM WHILE THOSE TWO WERE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY HEAD COACHES.

1) Did you think a tear down of a 3-13 roster would lead to a better season? - I have no idea, and neither do you. Hindsight is always 20/20.
2) do you wish they did the usual and won 3-6 games? I wish they had Dorsey back then, because he is by far the best GM we have had in decades
3) If yes to 2, are you just not a fan of having Garrett and Baker on the team? This is the most retarded question in the world

 

[Across The Field]

@dtgold88 Alright, this conversation became stale long ago. Here are the facts:

Dorsey is a phenomenal GM with a long history of developing really good teams. He certainly appears to be doing that in Cleveland.

He is cleaning up the messes of the previous regimes. That's why there are only a small handful of players left from before he came.

Accepting trades from other teams in order to trade down does not require skill. Being willing to do it does not mean you are a genius, especially since you were fired. Having the actual balls to use your high picks and build a winner is what is actually an accomplishment.

 

[dtgold88]

@dtgold88 Alright, this conversation became stale long ago. Here are the facts:

Dorsey is a phenomenal GM with a long history of developing really good teams. He certainly appears to be doing that in Cleveland.

He is cleaning up the messes of the previous regimes. That's why there are only a small handful of players left from before he came.

Accepting trades from other teams in order to trade down does not require skill. Being willing to do it does not mean you are a genius, especially since you were fired. Having the actual balls to use your high picks and build a winner is what is actually an accomplishment.

And just shows your agenda even more....

Sashi traded down 2 times. One time he ended up with a higher pick than the one he dealt. Also traded UP to acquire an extra #1 pick.

Let's not credit Sashi for crediting any of the messes before him, right? He didn't dump the overpaid, aging vets he inherited and we can just forget they were 3-13 when he took over and needed to be gutted, right? Dorsey inherited an ascending team. The idea you cannot see the difference is astonishing really.

Getting the right return in a trade does, in fact, require skill. Or you think Mangini did as well trading down as Sashi did?

always telling when someone wont answer simple, direct questions.

 

[Shanemansj13]

And just shows your agenda even more....

Sashi traded down 2 times. One time he ended up with a higher pick than the one he dealt. Also traded UP to acquire an extra #1 pick.

Let's not credit Sashi for crediting any of the messes before him, right? He didn't dump the overpaid, aging vets he inherited and we can just forget they were 3-13 when he took over and needed to be gutted, right? Dorsey inherited an ascending team. The idea you cannot see the difference is astonishing really.

Getting the right return in a trade does, in fact, require skill. Or you think Mangini did as well trading down as Sashi did?

always telling when someone wont answer simple, direct questions.

None of us said that, he deserves some credit but if you think he deserves all the credit for the Browns rebuild than I really can't help you out. I think if it was up to you he would still be the GM (interesting to see how that would have worked out) Lets give ALL credit to Sashi bc he knows how to trade down LOL.

Since Sashi Brown is such a mastermind why did he not get hired after the Browns fired him? I mean if he has potential and he did such a great job why is not on a rising team that values his great GM skills.

Since being fired by the Browns, Brown has worked as a consultant and runs his own investment firm.

 

[dtgold88]

I can't believe you think my believing Baker was really good while Kessler isn't is just because I'm "making excuses for Dorsey guys". You are losing all credibility by continuing this conversation.


Regarding Kpassagnon:

Does Tanoh Kpassagnon need a change of scenery from the Chiefs?



I haven't torn down Sashi, by the way. I've said he doesn't deserve the credit Dorsey does for where we are today. You've taken everything I've said and blown it entirely out of proportion. Also, please provide me a link that says tearing the team down, getting a bunch of picks, and lucking into Dorsey being available was the "plan". If Dorsey didn't just happen to be available, where do you actually think we'd be right now? I can say with all confidence we wouldn't have Landry, Randall, OBJ, and probably not many of the other players we have.

You made excuses for Baker. You wanted to credit him for dropped passes. You also said his best game was "far better" than Kessler's and were shown that was not the case. of course you would rather deflect than say, "ya know what, Kessler did have a couple real good games that were on par with baker's best"....and of course admit maybe Baker had more to work with.

saying this does not mean I think Baker isn't far better. why would I lose credibility when I spoke the truth? One loses credibilty to me when they cannot admit a simple mistake as you have done here.

Here's your link......Inside the Browns' front office, where hope and history collide

Here's an excerpt....By September 2015, many in the front office sensed that Farmer would be gone. It was perceived as an optimal time to pitch Haslam on a new vision. That fall, Haslam, team president Alec Scheiner, Sashi Brown and a few others visited executives in other sports in an effort to gain insights that might help steady the Browns, if not ultimately revolutionize football. Scheiner, Brown & Co. wanted to open Haslam's eyes to a different way of running a team, based heavily but not solely on analytics. The executives prepared a document for Haslam titled "Football Strategy Outline"to sell him on a radical rebounding plan based on a few years of pain that could pay off in many years of reward. The idea called for the Browns to tear down to the studs and commit to a four-year rebuild, primarily through the draft, mixing sabermetrics and traditional methods

 

[dtgold88]

And lookie here....what year would be in? Might it be year 4?

Here's is another excerpt (if you haven't seen this article it's a good read)

"The analytics group authored a color-coded list of goals, labeled "Browns Guardrails." It consisted of nine tenets, from talent retention, to ending uncoordinated leaks, to communicating more with coaches, to accumulating as many draft picks as possible, especially high second-rounders. Left unsaid in the document was the most important goal: The Browns had to stick together. This is like a roller coaster, the analytics contingent would tell Haslam. He couldn't get off in the middle of the ride."

 

[dtgold88]

BEING WILLING TO TORPEDO YOUR CAREER DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO ME. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT.

DORSEY IS NOT MANGINI OR HOLMGREN. HE IS EXPONENTIALLY MORE ACCOMPLISHED AS A GM WHILE THOSE TWO WERE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY HEAD COACHES.

1) Did you think a tear down of a 3-13 roster would lead to a better season? - I have no idea, and neither do you. Hindsight is always 20/20.
2) do you wish they did the usual and won 3-6 games? I wish they had Dorsey back then, because he is by far the best GM we have had in decades
3) If yes to 2, are you just not a fan of having Garrett and Baker on the team? This is the most retarded question in the world

reply to your replies....

1) do we know? No, but we can make reasonable assumptions. Get rid of your best players and it is not likely the team will improve is it?

2) Nice dodge

3) another nice dodge....How is it retarded? You "wish you had Dorsey". Is that not because you thought he'd make them better? If they did get better, how do they take Baker and Garrett with #1 picks?

Clear signs of irrational are inability to answer direct questions.

 

[dtgold88]

None of us said that, he deserves some credit but if you think he deserves all the credit for the Browns rebuild than I really can't help you out. I think if it was up to you he would still be the GM (interesting to see how that would have worked out) Lets give ALL credit to Sashi bc he knows how to trade down LOL.

Since Sashi Brown is such a mastermind why did he not get hired after the Browns fired him? I mean if he has potential and he did such a great job why is not on a rising team that values his great GM skills.

Since being fired by the Browns, Brown has worked as a consultant and runs his own investment firm.

Wow are you losing it.....who said he "deserves all the credit". I specifically said Dorsey deserves a ton of credit and could be argued more than sashi. Please read that until it sinks in.

Also said I love Dorsey in the role as GM. You've really gone off on the rials with these latest comments. I know it's not in you to admit as much, which is fine.

Once again, and please also read this until it sinks in....Sashi Brown is not a GM. Even he said as much (said they will eventually hire a credible GM).

Please get up to speed with the above before you reply if another is coming. But to dumb it down here goes....

1) I think the plan by Sashi/Paul D (and others) needed to be done
2) I am glad Jimmy allowed them to execute the plan
3) I think they did a very good job to set things up for Dorsey and make good on the plan for a 4 year rebuild (we are now in year 4)
4) I think Dorsey has done a fantastic job since taking over.

 

[Shanemansj13]

You made excuses for Baker. You wanted to credit him for dropped passes. You also said his best game was "far better" than Kessler's and were shown that was not the case. of course you would rather deflect than say, "ya know what, Kessler did have a couple real good games that were on par with baker's best"....and of course admit maybe Baker had more to work with.

saying this does not mean I think Baker isn't far better. why would I lose credibility when I spoke the truth? One loses credibilty to me when they cannot admit a simple mistake as you have done here.

Here's your link......Inside the Browns' front office, where hope and history collide

Here's an excerpt....By September 2015, many in the front office sensed that Farmer would be gone. It was perceived as an optimal time to pitch Haslam on a new vision. That fall, Haslam, team president Alec Scheiner, Sashi Brown and a few others visited executives in other sports in an effort to gain insights that might help steady the Browns, if not ultimately revolutionize football. Scheiner, Brown & Co. wanted to open Haslam's eyes to a different way of running a team, based heavily but not solely on analytics. The executives prepared a document for Haslam titled "Football Strategy Outline"to sell him on a radical rebounding plan based on a few years of pain that could pay off in many years of reward. The idea called for the Browns to tear down to the studs and commit to a four-year rebuild, primarily through the draft, mixing sabermetrics and traditional methods

WRONG.

He had multiple games that were far better than Kessler and it isn't close. Can't believe we are even talking about this.

Kessler had one game where he threw more than 1 TD in 9 starts. One game where he threw for over 250 yards.

His best game: 26-41 63% 336 yards 2 TD's 0 INT's

Bakers BETTER games - Unless you think yards outweighs scoring points and being very accurate

17-20 85% 216 yards 3 TD's 0 INT's
19-26 73% 258 yards 4 TD's 0 Int's
27-37 73% 284 yards 3 TD's 0 INT's

He also had a couple games you could put up with Kessler's best game but that is debatable.

You vouching for a 3rd pick and saying his best game is close to Bakers' is laughable. You are trying to find ways to give Sashi most of the credit for the rebuild.

Are you Sashi Brown or a relative of the guy? You seem to have an agenda giving this guy pretty much all the credit for the Browns rebuild. If this guy was such an asset to the organization he should have a job and be employed. Still waiting.... I am just really confused why you think Kessler's best is close to Baker and what one game proves regardless. They are close, Kessler will most likely never be a starting QB ever in this league unless injuries happen. Suitable backup, sure why not.

 

[Across The Field]

And just shows your agenda even more....

Sashi traded down 2 times. One time he ended up with a higher pick than the one he dealt. Also traded UP to acquire an extra #1 pick.

Let's not credit Sashi for crediting any of the messes before him, right? He didn't dump the overpaid, aging vets he inherited and we can just forget they were 3-13 when he took over and needed to be gutted, right? Dorsey inherited an ascending team. The idea you cannot see the difference is astonishing really.

Getting the right return in a trade does, in fact, require skill. Or you think Mangini did as well trading down as Sashi did?

always telling when someone wont answer simple, direct questions.

So you believe Sashi had a crystal ball and that he knew he'd wind up with a higher pick than he dealt? And when did he trade up and also grabbed an extra #1? I saw he traded back in 2016 and in 2017.

Dorsey inherited an 0-16 team and in 14 months he systematically gutted it and replaced nearly the entire roster with better players. They were not ascending. He took over a team with a horrible QB that Sashi/Berry spent a 2nd rounder on. Dorsey skillfully flipped him for our starting FS who had a fantastic year.

I've given you answers to every question you've asked that was serious, unlike your "Do you not want Baker and Garrett?" idiot question. And why do you keep bringing Mangini into this? He was never the GM. How do you not know that?

 

[Across The Field]

reply to your replies....

1) do we know? No, but we can make reasonable assumptions. Get rid of your best players and it is not likely the team will improve is it? What were you even getting at with this question?

2) Nice dodge Not a dodge. If we had Dorsey in 2016, we would probably be coming off of a playoff year, and there's a really good chance we'd have Mahomes right now.

3) another nice dodge....How is it retarded? You "wish you had Dorsey". Is that not because you thought he'd make them better? If they did get better, how do they take Baker and Garrett with #1 picks? It's retarded because it's so, so very retarded.

Clear signs of irrational are inability to answer direct questions.

Are you done yet? Are you ready to even try to make a point yet?