Cleveland Browns Ongoing Thread

[dtgold88]

Also, @Across The Field didn't you try to tell me Chris Conley was a solid pick at WR by Dorsey? That would be the same guy who in nearly twice as many games (53 to 27) has a whopping 449 more yards and 1 TD more than Corey Coleman. Might have been shane, though

Apologies if I'm wrong about this.

 

[Across The Field]

Shon Coleman was a 4th rounder, wasn't he? The vast majority of 4th rounders amount to nothing. It's debatable all those picks have been better than Ogbah. and what about the first rounder he has been better than?

Actually, no, I was thinking of Aaron. But I did think he was a 4th rounder. Never said same draft. and "next to worthless" is what one usually gets when they take a QB in the 90s of a draft. Hell, the guy got time over Bortles who was taken #5 in the entire draft when he was picked. Anyone who thinks Kessler is a bad pick is proving my point about an agenda. He's better than most QBs who go in round 3 or later.

Can we agree easier to find RBs in the draft than QB? In his first draft Dorsey took Knile Davis at 96 (right about where Sashi got Kessler in his first draft). Who has been a better pro?

Nico Johnson and his 23 tackles are better than shonn coleman?

You seem like a smart fan. One who knows mid-late round picks often fail. So again I ask BASED ON WHERE THEY WERE PICKED who did he take that was a bust other than Corey Coleman?

Shon was a 3rd rounder, but still worthless, as were most of their picks those two years.

You said he was taken "one round later". That would mean it's the same draft. Also, trying to promote Kessler as a "good pick" shows you're the one with the agenda. He has 8 career TDs and has been a 3rd stringer at best, but found himself on a team with an absolutely horrible QB that nobody supported anymore, so they had no other choice.

Yes, it's easier to find RBs, I won't argue that. However, Knile Davis was an undoubtedly better pro before his career ended. He actually showed glimpses of production. As you know, RBs take way more punishment than QBs, so they have a shorter shelf life. He has produced more TDs and hasn't even played in 2 years.

Yes, mid-late round picks fail more often than not. However, Dorsey has picked guys in those rounds that are stars. Hunt led the league in rushing, Kelce is arguably the top TE in the league, and Hill is probably the most explosive weapon in the NFL. Genard Avery looks every bit a long-time starter and potential pro-bowler. He was trending as a DROY candidate before getting hurt. Calloway, we both agree, has stud potential as well. I would've loved to see what he could've done with all of those picks in 2016-2017. My guess is he would've packaged several of them to trade for higher picks or veterans to help the team.

Corey Coleman was a colossal bust. Ogbah, I'd say, was a bust. Hard to say about Peppers since he's gone, so we'll see how it goes, but he was a bust for 75% of the games he played in Cleveland. If not for Dorsey's negotiation skills, we'd have been stuck with Kizer, who is a huge bust.

 

[Across The Field]

Also, @Across The Field didn't you try to tell me Chris Conley was a solid pick at WR by Dorsey? That would be the same guy who in nearly twice as many games (53 to 27) has a whopping 449 more yards and 1 TD more than Corey Coleman. Might have been shane, though

Apologies if I'm wrong about this.

I don't recall saying he was a solid pick, but it's not like he's been worthless. I think I may have said he was decent, but he also wasn't utilized much in KC. Conley was also taken 61 spots later in 2015 than Coleman was in 2016, so I'd obviously say that was a better pick.

 

[dtgold88]

Shon was a 3rd rounder, but still worthless, as were most of their picks those two years.

You said he was taken "one round later". That would mean it's the same draft. Also, trying to promote Kessler as a "good pick" shows you're the one with the agenda. He has 8 career TDs and has been a 3rd stringer at best, but found himself on a team with an absolutely horrible QB that nobody supported anymore, so they had no other choice.

Yes, it's easier to find RBs, I won't argue that. However, Knile Davis was an undoubtedly better pro before his career ended. He actually showed glimpses of production. As you know, RBs take way more punishment than QBs, so they have a shorter shelf life. He has produced more TDs and hasn't even played in 2 years.

Yes, mid-late round picks fail more often than not. However, Dorsey has picked guys in those rounds that are stars. Hunt led the league in rushing, Kelce is arguably the top TE in the league, and Hill is probably the most explosive weapon in the NFL. Genard Avery looks every bit a long-time starter and potential pro-bowler. He was trending as a DROY candidate before getting hurt. Calloway, we both agree, has stud potential as well. I would've loved to see what he could've done with all of those picks in 2016-2017. My guess is he would've packaged several of them to trade for higher picks or veterans to help the team.

Corey Coleman was a colossal bust. Ogbah, I'd say, was a bust. Hard to say about Peppers since he's gone, so we'll see how it goes, but he was a bust for 75% of the games he played in Cleveland. If not for Dorsey's negotiation skills, we'd have been stuck with Kizer, who is a huge bust.

Most of Dorsey's picks first 2 years also worthless. If you find a QB who can be a backup in the NFL round 3 or later that's better than most get out of those guys.

Davis is a bust. Plain and simple. Out of NFL. Kessler still on a roster for now and we both know harder to find a RB than a QB.

Looks like Ogunjobi and Shoebert are studs. Would bet TB likes Nassib. Hunt and Hill are showing why they were available so late. I don't fault Dorsey for taking the risk, though. Hope he tries again in the next draft with one of the many 5th rounders.

Can you ever wrap your head around Peppers playing out of position his first season and maybe that was why he didn't produce like he did year 2?

 

[dtgold88]

I don't recall saying he was a solid pick, but it's not like he's been worthless. I think I may have said he was decent, but he also wasn't utilized much in KC. Conley was also taken 61 spots later in 2015 than Coleman was in 2016, so I'd obviously say that was a better pick.

I'd say both are pretty much worthless but, yeah, Coleman worse as a 1st rounder. Sashi's only true bust

Of course Higgins was taken even later than Conley was, right?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Most of Dorsey's picks first 2 years also worthless. If you find a QB who can be a backup in the NFL round 3 or later that's better than most get out of those guys.

Davis is a bust. Plain and simple. Out of NFL. Kessler still on a roster for now and we both know harder to find a RB than a QB.

Looks like Ogunjobi and Shoebert are studs. Would bet TB likes Nassib. Hunt and Hill are showing why they were available so late. I don't fault Dorsey for taking the risk, though. Hope he tries again in the next draft with one of the many 5th rounders.

Can you ever wrap your head around Peppers playing out of position his first season and maybe that was why he didn't produce like he did year 2?

Dorsey's 2013 draft (had 8 picks) was still better than Sashi's 2016 (had 14 picks) for the simple fact of Travis Kelce, the best TE in the NFL. He is an absolute beast. Sashi drafted Schobert and Higgins who I like. Schobert is a young talented LB. Higgins is going to be the #4 most likely on this current team. I think you are undervaluing hitting homeruns, depth is great and that's what you want to do in the draft but getting star players to build around is the main goal.

Kelce's value outweighs anything Sashi did in that 2016 draft where he had a shit ton of picks, 14. 2/14 - one starter and another 4th WR. Dorsey - 2/8 - starting LT and star TE.

But the main thing I want to point out and something we will never know is would have Sashi picked Baker at 1 and Ward at 4. Baker wasn't even on some experts' boards and Ward was a little further down. If we don't have those two picks we aren't even discussing this right now. Sashi helped with depth but Dorsey hits homeruns.

Sashi homeruns:
Garrett at #1 was the clear cut best player in the 2017 draft.

Dorsey homeruns:
Travis Kelce in the 3rd round.
Marcus Peters at #18. He was an all-pro and 2 time PB.
Tyreek Hill in the 5th round.
Traded up for Mahomes at #10.
Kareem Hunt in the 3rd round. (then got him as GM of Browns as well)
Baker Mayfield at #1 - a lot of teams didn't have him in the top 5 or top 10.
Denzel Ward - projected top 10 but another great pick

The only thing you can say is Sashi didn't have a chance at this last years draft and only 2 years with the Browns. Nobody truly knows who he would have picked but the odds weren't Baker and Ward. Maybe Darnold and Fitzpatrick or something along those lines.

I really just don't see the debate here. Sashi did good in his short stint but homeruns wise it isn't close.

 

[dtgold88]

Dorsey's 2013 draft (had 8 picks) was still better than Sashi's 2016 (had 14 picks) for the simple fact of Travis Kelce, the best TE in the NFL. He is an absolute beast. Sashi drafted Schobert and Higgins who I like. Schobert is a young talented LB. Higgins is going to be the #4 most likely on this current team. I think you are undervaluing hitting homeruns, depth is great and that's what you want to do in the draft but getting star players to build around is the main goal.

Kelce's value outweighs anything Sashi did in that 2016 draft where he had a shit ton of picks, 14. 2/14 - one starter and another 4th WR. Dorsey - 2/8 - starting LT and star TE.

But the main thing I want to point out and something we will never know is would have Sashi picked Baker at 1 and Ward at 4. Baker wasn't even on some experts' boards and Ward was a little further down. If we don't have those two picks we aren't even discussing this right now. Sashi helped with depth but Dorsey hits homeruns.

Sashi homeruns:
Garrett at #1 was the clear cut best player in the 2017 draft.

Dorsey homeruns:
Travis Kelce in the 3rd round.
Marcus Peters at #18. He was an all-pro and 2 time PB.
Tyreek Hill in the 5th round.
Traded up for Mahomes at #10.
Kareem Hunt in the 3rd round. (then got him as GM of Browns as well)
Baker Mayfield at #1 - a lot of teams didn't have him in the top 5 or top 10.
Denzel Ward - projected top 10 but another great pick

The only thing you can say is Sashi didn't have a chance at this last years draft and only 2 years with the Browns. Nobody truly knows who he would have picked but the odds weren't Baker and Ward. Maybe Darnold and Fitzpatrick or something along those lines.

I really just don't see the debate here. Sashi did good in his short stint but homeruns wise it isn't close.

don't really disagree with any of this. I have said I like Dorsey. Only issue is with those who can't understand what Sashi did, which was put together a plan that was followed. A complete teardown that no football guy before him would undertake. And, thankfully, he and Paul D got Jimmy to buy in and stick with it. sashi even said when hired they expected to bring in a credible GM as he is not a talent evaluator.....that would be Berry, and then Dorsey.

As for Baker and Ward. I'm fairly certain they take Baker. He's an analytic's wet dream. Plenty of wins and starts in college, extremely high completion %, excellent TD/INT ratio.

ward? who knows.

 

[Across The Field]

Most of Dorsey's picks first 2 years also worthless. If you find a QB who can be a backup in the NFL round 3 or later that's better than most get out of those guys.

Davis is a bust. Plain and simple. Out of NFL. Kessler still on a roster for now and we both know harder to find a RB than a QB.

Looks like Ogunjobi and Shoebert are studs. Would bet TB likes Nassib. Hunt and Hill are showing why they were available so late. I don't fault Dorsey for taking the risk, though. Hope he tries again in the next draft with one of the many 5th rounders.

Can you ever wrap your head around Peppers playing out of position his first season and maybe that was why he didn't produce like he did year 2?

We've already done the 2 years vs 2 years comparisons. It is decidedly not apples to apples when you consider the picks that each of them had.

Davis isn't a bust by any means. He was the 96th overall pick. He played for 5 years, had two 100+ yard rushing games, and had more TDs than Kessler has had to this point. It wouldn't be even remotely shocking if Kessler was out of the league after 5 years, and he might not even make it that long considering he only has 3 years under his belt. How is Davis a bust but Kessler isn't? How can you be a bust when you were a late 3rd rounc pick?

I like Ogunjobi, I think he's got a good career ahead of him, but is by no means a stud. He was rated the 88th best DT in the league last year, so I have no idea where you're getting that.

Shobert has to improve his tackling, but otherwise yeah he's a stud. Nassib could end up being a good player for TB, but he wasn't for Cleveland.

Hill, we'll see what happens. The fact that it's only been unfounded allegations to this point, I'm guessing there wasn't anything concrete there, but no doubt he's had his issues. However, Hunt was available late because he was a RB from Toledo. He never had any legal issues in college, so I don't think you know what you're talking about there.

We'll see what happen with Peppers. He still has a long way to go towards proving himself to be worthy of a first round pick. If he continues the success he had in the second half of 2018, sure. If he regresses again, is he still not a bust?

 

[Across The Field]

I'd say both are pretty much worthless but, yeah, Coleman worse as a 1st rounder. Sashi's only true bust

Of course Higgins was taken even later than Conley was, right?

I'd hardly call either of them worthless. Coleman was Sashi's biggest bust no doubt, but not his only bust.

 

[dtgold88]

We've already done the 2 years vs 2 years comparisons. It is decidedly not apples to apples when you consider the picks that each of them had.

Davis isn't a bust by any means. He was the 96th overall pick. He played for 5 years, had two 100+ yard rushing games, and had more TDs than Kessler has had to this point. It wouldn't be even remotely shocking if Kessler was out of the league after 5 years, and he might not even make it that long considering he only has 3 years under his belt. How is Davis a bust but Kessler isn't? How can you be a bust when you were a late 3rd rounc pick?

I like Ogunjobi, I think he's got a good career ahead of him, but is by no means a stud. He was rated the 88th best DT in the league last year, so I have no idea where you're getting that.

Shobert has to improve his tackling, but otherwise yeah he's a stud. Nassib could end up being a good player for TB, but he wasn't for Cleveland.

Hill, we'll see what happens. The fact that it's only been unfounded allegations to this point, I'm guessing there wasn't anything concrete there, but no doubt he's had his issues. However, Hunt was available late because he was a RB from Toledo. He never had any legal issues in college, so I don't think you know what you're talking about there.

We'll see what happen with Peppers. He still has a long way to go towards proving himself to be worthy of a first round pick. If he continues the success he had in the second half of 2018, sure. If he regresses again, is he still not a bust?

I agree Davis not a bust based on where picked, but if you think Kessler is a bust then so is Davis. I don't think either is a bust FWIW.

It is true in those first 2 drafts, he did hit a home run on one guy who is a stud. Kelce. But so did Dorsey. You just want to dismiss him because you think most take him. Maybe they do. But some think he should have (and was going to) take Trubisky.

Rest of that first draft by Dorsey was complete garbage.

Pretty sure Hill had some off field issues before Toledo and while there. Might be why he went to Toledo.

Yeah, IF Peppers regresses he is a bust. Like you might say of anyone. But so far he was better in year 2 than 1...and played in a scheme suited for him.

And let's not forget, try as you might, when we discuss Dorsey's tremendous first draft it was made possible because of the extra picks. sure, he had to nail them, but no pick and he can't nail it.

 

[dtgold88]

I'd hardly call either of them worthless. Coleman was Sashi's biggest bust no doubt, but not his only bust.

Based on where picked I'd say he was. Unless you want to call everyone not named Kelce a bust from Dorsey's first draft.

 

[Across The Field]

I agree Davis not a bust based on where picked, but if you think Kessler is a bust then so is Davis. I don't think either is a bust FWIW.

It is true in those first 2 drafts, he did hit a home run on one guy who is a stud. Kelce. But so did Dorsey. You just want to dismiss him because you think most take him. Maybe they do. But some think he should have (and was going to) take Trubisky.

Rest of that first draft by Dorsey was complete garbage.

Pretty sure Hill had some off field issues before Toledo and while there. Might be why he went to Toledo.

Yeah, IF Peppers regresses he is a bust. Like you might say of anyone. But so far he was better in year 2 than 1...and played in a scheme suited for him.

And let's not forget, try as you might, when we discuss Dorsey's tremendous first draft it was made possible because of the extra picks. sure, he had to nail them, but no pick and he can't nail it.

Davis and Kessler were both basic 3rd rounders, but Davis had a better career no doubt up to this point. Before he faded, he actually showed traits of a starter. Kessler has always been nothing but an afterthought unless you were in a horrible situation, which both of his teams have been in over the past couple of years.

Kelce was a 3rd round pick. Garrett was the consensus #1 overall pick that the Browns happened to have. Not exactly the same thing there.

Are we now only talking about the first year's draft? Also, while he wasn't worth the #1 pick, Fisher was actually a pretty good tackle last year (#24 overall), and even was voted to the Pro Bowl. He's hardly complete garbage, and he's improved quite a bit over the last couple years.

Hunt had some weight and injury issues at Toledo, but no, he didn't have any legal issues.

Yes I'm well, well aware of the fact that Dorsey had 2 extra early picks. We all are. It isn't proving any point.

 

[Across The Field]

Based on where picked I'd say he was. Unless you want to call everyone not named Kelce a bust from Dorsey's first draft.

Ogbah was a bust. The jury is still out on Peppers considering his inconsistent career thusfar.

Considering only 2 of Dorsey's picks from his first draft were before 96th overall, you can only call Fisher a bust, and even he's shown improvement in the last couple years.

 

[dtgold88]

Davis and Kessler were both basic 3rd rounders, but Davis had a better career no doubt up to this point. Before he faded, he actually showed traits of a starter. Kessler has always been nothing but an afterthought unless you were in a horrible situation, which both of his teams have been in over the past couple of years.

Kelce was a 3rd round pick. Garrett was the consensus #1 overall pick that the Browns happened to have. Not exactly the same thing there.

Are we now only talking about the first year's draft? Also, while he wasn't worth the #1 pick, Fisher was actually a pretty good tackle last year (#24 overall), and even was voted to the Pro Bowl. He's hardly complete garbage, and he's improved quite a bit over the last couple years.

Hunt had some weight and injury issues at Toledo, but no, he didn't have any legal issues.

Yes I'm well, well aware of the fact that Dorsey had 2 extra early picks. We all are. It isn't proving any point.

Kessler was arguably the best QB not named Dak of the rookies his rookie season. Including Wentz. Nothing special, but considering what he had to work with?

And come on....Fisher is a bad pick for #1 overall...and worse he overpaid to keep him.

The point of Dorsey's 2 early picks is Sashi deserves as much or more credit for them. It's possible if sashi got to make the pick he'd also have taken Ward and Chubb. However, without the picks it is impossible for Dorsey to have used them on Ward and Chubb.

 

[dtgold88]

Ogbah was a bust. The jury is still out on Peppers considering his inconsistent career thusfar.

Considering only 2 of Dorsey's picks from his first draft were before 96th overall, you can only call Fisher a bust, and even he's shown improvement in the last couple years.

A 2nd rounder who has been a starter and was traded for to start is a bust? Is he a star? Nope. Not even close. Is it your opinion it's either stud or bust? If Ogbah is a bust what does that make the last 2nd rounder Dorsey took in KC, Tanoh Kpassagnon? Double secret super bust?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Kessler was arguably the best QB not named Dak of the rookies his rookie season. Including Wentz. Nothing special, but considering what he had to work with?

And come on....Fisher is a bad pick for #1 overall...and worse he overpaid to keep him.

The point of Dorsey's 2 early picks is Sashi deserves as much or more credit for them. It's possible if sashi got to make the pick he'd also have taken Ward and Chubb. However, without the picks it is impossible for Dorsey to have used them on Ward and Chubb.

Fisher has the 4th best weighted career approximate value for a player in that draft.
1. Bakhtiari - GB - one of the best LT's in the game
2. Le'Veon Bell - PIT
3. DeAndre Hopkins - HOU
4. Eric Fisher - KC
5. Travis Kelce - KC
6. Travis Frederick - one of the best centers in the league also below Fisher.

Kessler sucks dude. He had a pretty good half of rookie season but he is nothing more than a decent backup or 3rd string.

Bottomline: Fisher and Kelce in the 3rd is still better than anything Sashi did in the 2016 draft.

 

[dtgold88]

Fisher has the 4th best weighted career approximate value for a player in that draft.
1. Bakhtiari - GB - one of the best LT's in the game
2. Le'Veon Bell - PIT
3. DeAndre Hopkins - HOU
4. Eric Fisher - KC
5. Travis Kelce - KC
6. Travis Frederick - one of the best centers in the league also below Fisher.

Kessler sucks dude. He had a pretty good half of rookie season but he is nothing more than a decent backup or 3rd string.

Bottomline: Fisher and Kelce in the 3rd is still better than anything Sashi did in the 2016 draft.

a decent backup is all anyone can expect from a QB picked 93rd.....dude. what do you make of Knile Davis, picked 96th?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Moving on...

Is there a better combo in the league at these positions? All they are missing is an elite LT for some of the most important positions on a team.

You could think of one or two teams maybe.

Browns
QB - Mayfield
RB - Chubb
WR - Odell
DE - Garrett
CB - Ward

Maybe the Saints..
QB - Brees
RB - Kamura
WR - Thomas
DE - Jordan
CB - Lattimore

 

[Across The Field]

Kessler was arguably the best QB not named Dak of the rookies his rookie season. Including Wentz. Nothing special, but considering what he had to work with?

And come on....Fisher is a bad pick for #1 overall...and worse he overpaid to keep him.

The point of Dorsey's 2 early picks is Sashi deserves as much or more credit for them. It's possible if sashi got to make the pick he'd also have taken Ward and Chubb. However, without the picks it is impossible for Dorsey to have used them on Ward and Chubb.

LOL what?!? Are you serious? He has fewer career TDs in 3 years than Dak, Wentz, and Goff had in their first 10 career games. Jacoby Brissett has also unquestionably been a better QB.

I already said Fisher was unworthy of a #1 pick. What else do you want?

No, he doesn't. He definitely doesn't deserve more, that's for sure. Again, trading down for picks is a lot harder than actually making good picks.

 

[dtgold88]

Moving on...

Is there a better combo in the league at these positions? All they are missing is an elite LT for some of the most important positions on a team.

You could think of one or two teams maybe.

Browns
QB - Mayfield
RB - Chubb
WR - Odell
DE - Garrett
CB - Ward

Maybe the Saints..
QB - Brees
RB - Kamura
WR - Thomas
DE - Jordan
CB - Lattimore

Chargers, maybe?
QB - Rivers
RB - Gordon
WR - Allen
DE - Bosa
CB - Heyward

Make it DB instead of CB, though and they can go Derwin James.