Cleveland Browns Ongoing Thread

[dtgold88]

LOL what?!? Are you serious? He has fewer career TDs in 3 years than Dak, Wentz, and Goff had in their first 10 career games. Jacoby Brissett has also unquestionably been a better QB.

I already said Fisher was unworthy of a #1 pick. What else do you want?

No, he doesn't. He definitely doesn't deserve more, that's for sure. Again, trading down for picks is a lot harder than actually making good picks.

what part of "in his rookie season" and "other than Dak" stumped you?

And, yes, he deserves more. You have 0% chance to make a good pick if you don't have the pick. This is not debatable.

 

[Across The Field]

A 2nd rounder who has been a starter and was traded for to start is a bust? Is he a star? Nope. Not even close. Is it your opinion it's either stud or bust? If Ogbah is a bust what does that make the last 2nd rounder Dorsey took in KC, Tanoh Kpassagnon? Double secret super bust?

We've seen Ogbah as a starter since he entered the league, and it just hasn't been impressive. He was somewhat OK in 2017, but then was awful last year.

The thing is, Kpassagnon was drafted as a project. There were no intentions for him to come in and play right away. He was a pure upside pick. Also, he was drafted near the end of the 2nd round, not at the very top of it. It's difficult to say at this point. Not sure why, but they moved him from DE to OLB, and he's 6'7", 289. He was behind Dee Ford until recently when he was traded.

 

[Across The Field]

what part of "in his rookie season" and "other than Dak" stumped you?

And, yes, he deserves more. You have 0% chance to make a good pick if you don't have the pick. This is not debatable.

Stumped me? Again - Are you serious?!? He had 6 TD passes his rookie year, and his numbers were skewed when they played Tennessee (3rd worst pass defense in the league that year) and he had 336 yards and 2 TDs. If he was the supposed 2nd best rookie that year, why did the Browns find it necessary to play 7 QBs that year? I mean, they had the 2nd best rookie QB in the league, right?

No, he doesn't. It's an absolute fact that accepting a trade from another team that gives you picks is much, much easier than actually using the picks and going 2 of 2 with 2 studs. This isn't even a debate.

 

[dtgold88]

We've seen Ogbah as a starter since he entered the league, and it just hasn't been impressive. He was somewhat OK in 2017, but then was awful last year.

The thing is, Kpassagnon was drafted as a project. There were no intentions for him to come in and play right away. He was a pure upside pick. Also, he was drafted near the end of the 2nd round, not at the very top of it. It's difficult to say at this point. Not sure why, but they moved him from DE to OLB, and he's 6'7", 289. He was behind Dee Ford until recently when he was traded.

The guy has done next to nothing in the NFL. If Ogbah is a bust, he is beyond a bust. Just more excuses for Dorsey picks. Come on.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Chargers, maybe?
QB - Rivers
RB - Gordon
WR - Allen
DE - Bosa
CB - Heyward

Make it DB instead of CB, though and they can go Derwin James.

Another great combo just not sure how much more Rivers is playing maybe 3 years tops but their window is going to be now. They just can never get over the hump. Add in Derwin and Desmond King and I would put them at #1.

 

[Across The Field]

The guy has done next to nothing in the NFL. If Ogbah is a bust, he is beyond a bust. Just more excuses for Dorsey picks. Come on.

He's hardly played. He was behind a former first round pick in Dee Ford until last month. How do you not get that? Again, once we actually see what he has to offer when he's on the field, make an assertion then. Andy Reid chose not to play him over Dee Ford obviously.

I have said before that Dorsey wasn't batting 1.000 in his draft picks. Like every single GM in the NFL, he's had some misses. However, I have no doubt in my mind he would've brought back better talent than Sashi/Berry did in 2016-2017 if he was here. His track record speaks for itself. That's the point.

 

[dtgold88]

Stumped me? Again - Are you serious?!? He had 6 TD passes his rookie year, and his numbers were skewed when they played Tennessee (3rd worst pass defense in the league that year) and he had 336 yards and 2 TDs. If he was the supposed 2nd best rookie that year, why did the Browns find it necessary to play 7 QBs that year? I mean, they had the 2nd best rookie QB in the league, right?

No, he doesn't. It's an absolute fact that accepting a trade from another team that gives you picks is much, much easier than actually using the picks and going 2 of 2 with 2 studs. This isn't even a debate.

I never said he was the 2nd best QB, but he did have the second best rookie season. But once again you go out of your way to downplay Sashi guys but make excuses for Dorsey guys. Oh....this guy was a project, he was never supposed to play right away, they probably hoped by year 7 he'd finally make a play.

rookie seasons...
Kessler - 6/2 TD/INT%......65.6 comp. %...........92.3 QBR.......7.2 yards/attempt
Wentz - 16/14.................62.4........................79.3................5.7

And Wentz joined a 7-9 team, while Kessler joined a stripped 3-13 team.

Yes or no......can you pick a stud if you don't have the pick?

You don't know Sashi would not also have found studs at 4 and 35. But we do know with no pick Dorsey would not. This is a fact.

 

[dtgold88]

Another great combo just not sure how much more Rivers is playing maybe 3 years tops but their window is going to be now. They just can never get over the hump. Add in Derwin and Desmond King and I would put them at #1.

And Ingram

 

[Shanemansj13]

I never said he was the 2nd best QB, but he did have the second best rookie season. But once again you go out of your way to downplay Sashi guys but make excuses for Dorsey guys. Oh....this guy was a project, he was never supposed to play right away, they probably hoped by year 7 he'd finally make a play.

rookie seasons...
Kessler - 6/2 TD/INT%......65.6 comp. %...........92.3 QBR.......7.2 yards/attempt
Wentz - 16/14.................62.4........................79.3................5.7

And Wentz joined a 7-9 team, while Kessler joined a stripped 3-13 team.

Yes or no......can you pick a stud if you don't have the pick?

You don't know Sashi would not also have found studs at 4 and 35. But we do know with no pick Dorsey would not. This is a fact.

I really don't see the point of propping up a decent backup. The fact is he isn't a starter and he doesn't play.

The fact is Kessler is what he is. A 3rd round pick that will always be a 2nd or 3rd string guy.

Better or equal QB's drafted in the 3rd or later:
Brissett
Dak
You could even say Driskel has more of a shot to be a starter.

Then of course Goff and Wentz went 1-2.

But I don't even get this argument. Kessler was drafted in the 3rd and he won't play.

The main goal is to find stars.
The goal in the draft is get depth for a team and gems in later rounds.

Dorsey has found more stars than Sashi did and it isn't close.
Both Dorsey and Sashi have drafted guys that built depth for their teams.

But the stars are the difference. You aren't winning anything without stars.

 

[dtgold88]

He's hardly played. He was behind a former first round pick in Dee Ford until last month. How do you not get that? Again, once we actually see what he has to offer when he's on the field, make an assertion then. Andy Reid chose not to play him over Dee Ford obviously.

I have said before that Dorsey wasn't batting 1.000 in his draft picks. Like every single GM in the NFL, he's had some misses. However, I have no doubt in my mind he would've brought back better talent than Sashi/Berry did in 2016-2017 if he was here. His track record speaks for itself. That's the point.

My guess is he would and my God I would hope he would....what with 20+ years experience in a FO and in drafts while Sashi to this day has never been a GM and had never been in a draft.

 

[dtgold88]

I really don't see the point of propping up a decent backup. The fact is he isn't a starter and he doesn't play.

The fact is Kessler is what he is. A 3rd round pick that will always be a 2nd or 3rd string guy.

Better or equal QB's drafted in the 3rd or later:
Brissett
Dak
You could even say Driskel has more of a shot to be a starter.

Then of course Goff and Wentz went 1-2.

But I don't even get this argument. Kessler was drafted in the 3rd and he won't play.

The main goal is to find stars.
The goal in the draft is get depth for a team and gems in later rounds.

Dorsey has found more stars than Sashi did and it isn't close.
Both Dorsey and Sashi have drafted guys that built depth for their teams.

But the stars are the difference. You aren't winning anything without stars.

Ooooh. A handful of QBs drafted later who were better. would you like a list of first and second rounders who have been worse? Hell, Elway traded up for Lynch in round 1 and to my knowledge he is not even on a team. Sticking with Denver how about Tebow? Osweiler debatable and he was a 2nd rounder.

And, yes, I would hope guys who went 1 and 2 would be better than a guy who went 93rd. Even though the guy who went 93rd was better as a rookie than both.

I would hope Dorsey found more stars having 6 drafts to work with as opposed to 2. ....coming off 20+ years of experience.

Then we have the pesky fact 2 of the possible stars were only picked because Sashi left him the picks. Or are you thinking without the picks Dorsey could just call Goodell and say, "Mr Commish, I really, really like Ward and Chubb. Pretty, pretty please can we have them?"

 

[Shanemansj13]

Ooooh. A handful of QBs drafted later who were better. would you like a list of first and second rounders who have been worse? Hell, Elway traded up for Lynch in round 1 and to my knowledge he is not even on a team. Sticking with Denver how about Tebow? Osweiler debatable and he was a 2nd rounder.

And, yes, I would hope guys who went 1 and 2 would be better than a guy who went 93rd. Even though the guy who went 93rd was better as a rookie than both.

I would hope Dorsey found more stars having 6 drafts to work with as opposed to 2. ....coming off 20+ years of experience.

Then we have the pesky fact 2 of the possible stars were only picked because Sashi left him the picks. Or are you thinking without the picks Dorsey could just call Goodell and say, "Mr Commish, I really, really like Ward and Chubb. Pretty, pretty please can we have them?"

So Sashi gets credit for the Browns having the worst record in the league?
You can have all the picks in the world but if you draft the wrong guy it does you no good.
Garrett was a clear #1...Mayfield wasn't. Some had him as the 3rd or 4th QB OTB and some had Ward as the 2nd best CB.

I mean if you want to give an ex-GM credit bc he gave Dorsey picks then go ahead and do that. It just doesn't make sense.

Going by Sashi's 2016 draft he didn't do too well with the top picks. Only sure one was Garrett in 2017. Dorsey got 2 HUGE HOMERUNS and they both weren't projected top 5 or Baker not even top 10.

You are not thinking clearly buddy.

It like going to a job interview and you have 6-8 years less experience than this other applicant BUT you know the last couple years we were about the same productive wise. I have no experience building up a team though and the other guy does. Please hire me and take a chance. This other applicant has one of the best resumes though.

You can keep arguing about a guy that had one successful draft and hit exactly one homerun but it just doesn't work that way. Bottomline. If you can wrap your head around this than there isn't anything more to say.

 

[dtgold88]

So Sashi gets credit for the Browns having the worst record in the league?
You can have all the picks in the world but if you draft the wrong guy it does you no good.
Garrett was a clear #1...Mayfield wasn't. Some had him as the 3rd or 4th QB OTB and some had Ward as the 2nd best CB.

I mean if you want to give an ex-GM credit bc he gave Dorsey picks then go ahead and do that. It just doesn't make sense.

Going by Sashi's 2016 draft he didn't do too well with the top picks. Only sure one was Garrett in 2017. Dorsey got 2 HUGE HOMERUNS and they both weren't projected top 5 or Baker not even top 10.

You are not thinking clearly buddy.

It like going to a job interview and you have 6-8 years less experience than this other applicant BUT you know the last couple years we were about the same productive wise. I have no experience building up a team though and the other guy does. Please hire me and take a chance. This other applicant has one of the best resumes though.

You can keep arguing about a guy that had one successful draft and hit exactly one homerun but it just doesn't work that way. Bottomline. If you can wrap your head around this than there isn't anything more to say.

I would give them credit, sure. But Sashi, Paul D and haslem, as well as Berry. You'd rather they win meaningless games and not not get Garrett and Baker?

so, yes, you think Dorsey can pick Ward if he didn't have the pick? He's that good, huh?

I'm not really even arguing he's better at the draft as I keep saying over and over he wasn't in charge. More likely it was Berry. what I am arguing for him (as well as Paul D and Jimmy for agreeing) was coming up with a plan and sticking to it.

and here's a flash......it worked.

Or you'd prefer go with the football guys who would never do the full teardown that was needed? Kept winning 3-6 games but never get the top pick needed to get the QB they wanted?

 

[Across The Field]

I never said he was the 2nd best QB, but he did have the second best rookie season. But once again you go out of your way to downplay Sashi guys but make excuses for Dorsey guys. Oh....this guy was a project, he was never supposed to play right away, they probably hoped by year 7 he'd finally make a play.

rookie seasons...
Kessler - 6/2 TD/INT%......65.6 comp. %...........92.3 QBR.......7.2 yards/attempt
Wentz - 16/14.................62.4........................79.3................5.7

And Wentz joined a 7-9 team, while Kessler joined a stripped 3-13 team.

Yes or no......can you pick a stud if you don't have the pick?

You don't know Sashi would not also have found studs at 4 and 35. But we do know with no pick Dorsey would not. This is a fact.

I guess. The fact that the Browns thought so much of him that they started 6 other QBs during the season says all you really need to know. He had one decent game against one of the worst pass defenses in the league and was junk the rest of the time.

Getting a pick is easy. A team approaches you for a trade and you accept. I've already stated this over and over. That doesn't take skill.

Great. But Dorsey picked the studs, as he has a track record of doing. Sashi? Not so much. But big congrats to him for selecting the consensus top player in the draft at #1.

 

[Across The Field]

My guess is he would and my God I would hope he would....what with 20+ years experience in a FO and in drafts while Sashi to this day has never been a GM and had never been in a draft.

Then what are you even trying to argue? Are you still trying to say Sashi was some genius for accepting trades that other teams proposed and then stepped aside for an actual GM to execute the picks?

 

[dtgold88]

I guess. The fact that the Browns thought so much of him that they started 6 other QBs during the season says all you really need to know. He had one decent game against one of the worst pass defenses in the league and was junk the rest of the time.

Getting a pick is easy. A team approaches you for a trade and you accept. I've already stated this over and over. That doesn't take skill.

Great. But Dorsey picked the studs, as he has a track record of doing. Sashi? Not so much. But big congrats to him for selecting the consensus top player in the draft at #1.

And here we go downplaying Sashi picks. No mention of Baker playing well against garbage defenses but throwing picks against the good ones? Let me guess.....Chad Thomas was just a project. One of the top picks in round 3 was never supposed to see the field. They hope he can make a play by 2021 and that would be a win for Dorsey.

And, sure, getting a pick can be easy but making the right deal for your pick/player is not as easy. You prefer what Sashi got for the picks or football guy Mangini or Holmgren?

How about a big congrats for finally doing what the football guys before him wouldn't? A complete tear down to get the #1 picks to use on Baker/Garrett? I suppose you wish they would have kept the overpaid vets and gone 3-13 or 4-12 and hoped their QB fell to Dorsey?

Once again.....Sashi's job was "the plan" not "the picks". If you don't like them blame the football guy (Berry). someone must have liked them, though, as they made Berry their GM.

 

[dtgold88]

Then what are you even trying to argue? Are you still trying to say Sashi was some genius for accepting trades that other teams proposed and then stepped aside for an actual GM to execute the picks?

I am saying your complaining about the job Sashi did is absurd. It set them up perfectly and he did exactly what he and Paul D said they would do.

And you think Paul D/sashi didn't figure out what they needed in return for players/picks? Maybe they should have just taken a mid-late 1, a 2 and some garbage players in return for the Wentz pick like Mangini when he traded with the Jets. Would that be better?

And, yes, an "actual GM" did make the picks with his scouts (like Sashi said would happen). He was there to break ties. Don't you wish we had someone like him when Davis picked Warren even though everyone else wanted Seymour?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Mississippi State DT Jeffery Simmons posts about Browns visit on Instagram

 

[Across The Field]

I am saying your complaining about the job Sashi did is absurd. It set them up perfectly and he did exactly what he and Paul D said they would do.

And you think Paul D/sashi didn't figure out what they needed in return for players/picks? Maybe they should have just taken a mid-late 1, a 2 and some garbage players in return for the Wentz pick like Mangini when he traded with the Jets. Would that be better?

And, yes, an "actual GM" did make the picks with his scouts (like Sashi said would happen). He was there to break ties. Don't you wish we had someone like him when Davis picked Warren even though everyone else wanted Seymour?

I've never once complained about what Sashi did. What's absurd is that you're coming to that conclusion. I'm saying he doesn't deserve credit for Dorsey's work.

Also, if you think the Eagles came to Cleveland with an offer of a mid-late 1, a 2, and garbage players, you probably don't know how these sort of trades work these days.

 

[Across The Field]

And here we go downplaying Sashi picks. No mention of Baker playing well against garbage defenses but throwing picks against the good ones? Let me guess.....Chad Thomas was just a project. One of the top picks in round 3 was never supposed to see the field. They hope he can make a play by 2021 and that would be a win for Dorsey.

And, sure, getting a pick can be easy but making the right deal for your pick/player is not as easy. You prefer what Sashi got for the picks or football guy Mangini or Holmgren?

How about a big congrats for finally doing what the football guys before him wouldn't? A complete tear down to get the #1 picks to use on Baker/Garrett? I suppose you wish they would have kept the overpaid vets and gone 3-13 or 4-12 and hoped their QB fell to Dorsey?

Once again.....Sashi's job was "the plan" not "the picks". If you don't like them blame the football guy (Berry). someone must have liked them, though, as they made Berry their GM.

So now Baker is no better than Cody Kessler? Are you serious with this comparison?

Not sure what the plan was with Chad Thomas, but he was a rookie sitting behind 2 vets. It happens. For the 426th time, I've never said Dorsey bats 1.000 with his picks.

You keep using "football guy" as if it means something. Mangini and Homlgren did shitty jobs, but stop using "football guy" as if it is proving some point of yours.

He did a complete tear down, and we fans suffered for it for the worst 2-game stretch in NFL history. I've said this before to you, tearing a team down and accumulating draft picks is much, much easier than building one up by hitting on trades/FA signings and nailing draft picks.

Again, Berry isn't a GM. I highly doubt Sashi knew coming in to that job that his role was going to be to tear the team down and then immediately get fired. What he did helped an actually talented GM build the Browns into what they are now. I've never argued that.