Celtics '19'20 - Turning over a New Clover Leaf

[The Q]

Well the Lakers have nothing to offer in a trade. Unless they plan on giving up their 2023 and 2025 1st round draft picks I guess.

kuz in theory...

 

[redseat]

Kemba finally beats Lebron!

 

[Gman]

Kemba finally beats Lebron!

Kemba not on a crap-tastic, spend-thrift team vs LeBron:

1-0

 

[trojanfan12]

Well the Lakers have nothing to offer in a trade. Unless they plan on giving up their 2023 and 2025 1st round draft picks I guess.

kuz in theory...

The Lakers would have zero problem giving up their 2023 and 2025 picks for the right player. Especially since, if things go according to plan, they will be late 20's picks anyway.

However, any trade of any significance that the Lakers could make would almost certainly have to include Kuzma.

However, there are problems with that.

Kuzma is still on his rookie deal, only makes $1.9 million this year and will only make $3.5 million next year.

Any player that is good enough for Kuzma to be traded for is likely going to be making significantly more than he does so other players would have to be thrown in to make the salaries match.

KCP has the best contract to make the salaries match, but....he has a No Trade Clause and has actually been playing well enough that the Lakers may not want to trade him anyway. He's finally exclusively playing the "3 and D" role that the Lakers got him for and it seems to really be helping.

Unless Lebron can somehow get KCP to "take one for Team Klutch" and waive his NTC, I don't think the Lakers can put together a package good enough to beat another team in a bidding war.

In fact, I'm not sure they could win a bidding war even if they could include KCP.

Also, we really don't know how good Kuzma can be. He's only 24 and has improved every season. Trading away Ingram and seeing him play at an all star level is okay because it got them AD. But trading Kuzma, watching him develop into an all star caliber player and getting back a likely older role player would suck.

Of course, keeping him, seeing him never get any better than he is now and knowing they could have gotten a better player who may have made the difference in getting a title would suck too. lol

Unless there's a team out there just waiting to be fleeced or just wanting to help the Lakers (lol), their best bet is going to be hoping they can land Collison next month and/or pick up someone else in the buyout market.

 

[flyerhawk]

Unless there's a team out there just waiting to be fleeced or just wanting to help the Lakers (lol), their best bet is going to be hoping they can land Collison next month and/or pick up someone else in the buyout market.

Pretty much this. The Lakers may be willing to give up draft picks down the road but the further a draft pick is out on the time horizon the less value it has.

Kuzma has value but, as you say, it will be tough to get good value in return given his salary.

 

[buckalis]

This is a great clip from Grant Williams... first on the defensive end where his positioning is rock solid, then showing his versatility bringing the ball up the floor and making a tough pass.


One of the big strengths of the Celtics is that multiple guys can bring the ball up the floor without needing to waste time with a pass and therefore catch the opposing defense before it is set. Jaylen Brown excels in creating these semi-transition opportunities, in particular... but Tatum, Hayward and even Husky Grant can all force this kind of action... it's huge for us.

Things are simpler than that... The Celtics are a well coached young team, which has been set up to continuously improve and contend for many years to follow...

The Lakers are exactly the opposite... A circus based on an aging superstar on his descent, with no coaching or tactics on the floor, or any young talent to hope building something worthy upon for the future...

A real circus that has hired a batch of journeymen veterans and hopes (in their fans dreams) to buy the ability to contend...

A real circus that all decent coaches would refuse to take over and direct like it happened this past summer...

 

[trojanfan12]

The Lakers are exactly the opposite... A circus based on an aging superstar on his descent, with no coaching or tactics on the floor, or any young talent to hope building something worthy upon for the future...

Frank Vogel was brought in, largely to improve the Lakers defense. The Lakers are currently 7th after finishing something like 28th or 29th last year.

They managed to put together a decent roster despite waiting on Kawhi, but no one saw this roster having the best record in the West and 2nd best in the NBA at this point in the season.

Coaching has proven to be the least of the Lakers very few problems.

AD is 26. Kyle Kuzma is 24.

Those are a couple of nice pieces to build around and attract other top FA's with.

It was one game against a team that was playing at home and was desperate for a win (they had lost 3 in a row and 6 of their last 8).

As usual, you are a proven to be a deepshit moron.

 

[Sparhawk]

Also, we really don't know how good Kuzma can be. He's only 24 and has improved every season. Trading away Ingram and seeing him play at an all star level is okay because it got them AD. But trading Kuzma, watching him develop into an all star caliber player and getting back a likely older role player would suck.

Of course, keeping him, seeing him never get any better than he is now and knowing they could have gotten a better player who may have made the difference in getting a title would suck too. lol

Unless there's a team out there just waiting to be fleeced or just wanting to help the Lakers (lol), their best bet is going to be hoping they can land Collison next month and/or pick up someone else in the buyout market.

By what metrics are you determining that?

 

[trojanfan12]

By what metrics are you determining that?

It's only his 3rd year, but he improved offensively from his rookie year to his 2nd year. Pretty much the only area where there was a drop was his 3 point percentage (which is up this year over last, but not to the 36% he shot his rookie year).

This season, when he has had to step in as the #2 option, he's played really well and is a big part of why the Lakers went 4-1 over the 5 games that AD just missed.

He also appears to have improved defensively this year. In the game against the Rockets, Vogel went to him at one point in the game and asked him if he thought he could slow Westbrook. Kuzma said yes and then did a nice job on him.

 

[Sparhawk]

It's only his 3rd year, but he improved offensively from his rookie year to his 2nd year. Pretty much the only area where there was a drop was his 3 point percentage (which is up this year over last, but not to the 36% he shot his rookie year).

This season, when he has had to step in as the #2 option, he's played really well and is a big part of why the Lakers went 4-1 over the 5 games that AD just missed.

He also appears to have improved defensively this year. In the game against the Rockets, Vogel went to him at one point in the game and asked him if he thought he could slow Westbrook. Kuzma said yes and then did a nice job on him.

Kyle Kuzma Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

He's playing on the best team in the West and his advanced metrics for defense are frightening.
When you look at the team page, he trails significantly in offensive and defensive win shares, BPM, and VORP.

Here's a comparable player, though it should be noted that the other player is 2 years younger :
Player Comparison Finder: Furkan Korkmaz (2019-20) vs. Kyle Kuzma (2019-20) | Basketball-Reference.com

 

[trojanfan12]

Kyle Kuzma Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

He's playing on the best team in the West and his advanced metrics for defense are frightening.
When you look at the team page, he trails significantly in offensive and defensive win shares, BPM, and VORP.

Here's a comparable player, though it should be noted that the other player is 2 years younger :
Player Comparison Finder: Furkan Korkmaz (2019-20) vs. Kyle Kuzma (2019-20) | Basketball-Reference.com

Didn't say his defense was good. I said it was better. He still has a lot of work to do. Defense is the hardest part of the NBA game for most young players to master and improvement comes in fits and starts for the first few years. He'll do what he did to Westbrook in one game, then get torched in his next game. But overall, his effort and footwork are better.

To be completely fair though, some of the improvement may simply be that the Lakers have improved as a team and they have Dwight, AD and Javale doing a great job of "cleaning up the mess" when a guy on the perimeter gets burned.

This year, he missed training camp and the first 2 or so weeks of the season. Considering his inexperience and that his role has completely changed, it's not surprising that he has been inconsistent and struggled some this year.

I've watched every game he's played in since he's been in the league. Stats, as usual, are a pretty poor way to tell the whole story.

 

[flyerhawk]

Kuzma is probably going to have a good long NBA career. He won't ever likely be an all-star but he could be a valuable player on a championship caliber team.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Kuzma is probably going to have a good long NBA career. He won't ever likely be an all-star but he could be a valuable player on a championship caliber team.

He's no Alex Caruso

 

[The Q]

He's no Alex Caruso

true.

just ask Rihanna

 

[The Q]

Kuzma is probably going to have a good long NBA career. He won't ever likely be an all-star but he could be a valuable player on a championship caliber team.

The lakers missed the chance to sell high, but he can still be a piece of a trade.

not sure who. Maybe Bertans or Covington.

those guys are going to be really popular.

 

[Black Manta]

Good win for the Celtics, the question is, if this was a 7 game series, do they have enough fire power to win that series?

 

[flyerhawk]

The lakers missed the chance to sell high, but he can still be a piece of a trade.

not sure who. Maybe Bertans or Covington.

those guys are going to be really popular.

Yeah. I suspect that both of those guys are going to be traded for way more than we expected.

 

[Gman]

Good win for the Celtics, the question is, if this was a 7 game series, do they have enough fire power to win that series?

Lakers v Celtics in the Finals would be a dream come true... we'll see if they can both do what needs to be done in their respective conferences, of course...

That said: a healthy Celtics team has plenty of "fire power"...

• Kemba
• Tatum
• Brown
• Hayward

Fire power isn't the problem. So far, the problems have been health, consistent shooting, and (to a lesser extent and more based on the match-up) size.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Good win for the Celtics, the question is, if this was a 7 game series, do they have enough fire power to win that series?

Lakers in 3

 

[trojanfan12]

Lakers v Celtics in the Finals would be a dream come true... we'll see if they can both do what needs to be done in their respective conferences, of course...

That said: a healthy Celtics team has plenty of "fire power"...

• Kemba
• Tatum
• Brown
• Hayward

Fire power isn't the problem. So far, the problems have been health, consistent shooting, and (to a lesser extent and more based on the match-up) size.

Yeah, it would be a great series. The Lakers biggest advantage over the C's is their size. The C's biggest advantage is on the wings.

Whichever team did the better job of asserting that advantage would take the series.

But, there's also the Lebron factor. We've seen him absolutely lose his damn mind in the finals.

He does that and the Lakers would be damn hard to beat.