Bruce Allen adamant that KC will be back next year

[skinsdad62]

Can't argue with your opinion, however, isn't it possible, based on last year's failure to sign Kirk long term, that Scott believes that there is someone that he believes can replace Kirk? Not even possible? These guys get big money to evaluate players and risk their careers doing it. Yes it's a risk, but it is also possible that the team gets better without him....OK, less likely, but impossible?, I'm not ready to forgo that piece of logic. My plan B is not better than anyone else's either, but that question continues to be asked.....name him.

i ask people to name the person because SM has the same access to guys available as you or I . my asking about putting a name to it lets me see where they are going with their opinion or are they just flapping their soup coolers to flap their soup coolers

last year it was up to KC to "prove it " he did , he put up similar numbers to the year before but now when its time to pay then well its another test to pass

we need to pay him because it sends the wrong message to other players when you say "prove it " then fail to live up to your word

 

[Stymietee]

i ask people to name the person because SM has the same access to guys available as you or I . my asking about putting a name to it lets me see where they are going with their opinion or are they just flapping their soup coolers to flap their soup coolers

OK, fair enough, but what always seem to happen when there are names offered? No respect for that opinion and the usual BS that follows as to why those names can never duplicate what Kirk has done. It becomes silly to even respond with possible names. To me Kirk presents us with not only his play but the type of fella that he is....middle of the road kinda of guy, who strictly follows the script, not real innovative or effective off script, likeable and tries to sell that down home folksy way even though he's a leader in a locker room full of alpha men.

There are plenty of guys who are currently employed in the NFL, even as backups, who present the same personality type and could effectively or not, fill that role. Whether we believe it or not is not relevant beyond as argument fodder here.

 

[Stymietee]

last year it was up to KC to "prove it " he did , he put up similar numbers to the year before but now when its time to pay then well its another test to pass

we need to pay him because it sends the wrong message to other players when you say "prove it " then fail to live up to your word

Fair enough, but let me ask first if you have one, what is the "take a hike" amount that Kirk and his reps insist on where you say bye Kirk? Scott's seem to be, based on last year.. anything above the usual % of cap (13%) that QB's usually earn. This year it's $22million per. I honestly believe that last year had Kirk and his reps countered with an amount at or near that %, there would have been a deal done then. They had in their pocket at the time, a guarantee of 20 million then, that number rises to 24 million this year.

 

[Sportster 72]

Although I am not necessarily in lock step with Sty, he is not wrong in saying you should always try to getting better. How you do that is important.

 

[Sharkinva]

Although I am not necessarily in lock step with Sty, he is not wrong in saying you should always try to getting better. How you do that is important.

Agreed you should always be in improvement mode. Thing is, he also wanted to quote the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So one has to wonder, how is proclaiming or attempting to proclaim the best QB we have had in 20 years STILL not good enough, not doing the same thing and expecting different results??

 

[Skin'EmAll]

OK, fair enough, but what always seem to happen when there are names offered? No respect for that opinion and the usual BS that follows as to why those names can never duplicate what Kirk has done. It becomes silly to even respond with possible names. To me Kirk presents us with not only his play but the type of fella that he is....middle of the road kinda of guy, who strictly follows the script, not real innovative or effective off script, likeable and tries to sell that down home folksy way even though he's a leader in a locker room full of alpha men.

There are plenty of guys who are currently employed in the NFL, even as backups, who present the same personality type and could effectively or not, fill that role. Whether we believe it or not is not relevant beyond as argument fodder here.

I'd have to agree with Sty's last few posts. Also since no one is throwing names out for debate...Cutler for about 10mil a year could do Cousins numbers. I believe this "if" LG & C were upgraded. And the defense was upgraded.
If we had the same EXACT 2016 roster and coaches, Cutler could lead us to 8 wins as well. Of couse, that is debatable.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'd have to agree with Sty's last few posts. Also since no one is throwing names out for debate...Cutler for about 10mil a year could do Cousins numbers. I believe this "if" LG & C were upgraded. And the defense was upgraded.
If we had the same EXACT 2016 roster and coaches, Cutler could lead us to 8 wins as well. Of couse, that is debatable.

OK so you put a name to it, some one who might be able to do what Cousins did. Now the questions are

1. can we honestly expect Cutler to et any better than he is??
2. Would Cutler be anything more than a one year rental??
3. If any one really saw Cutler in this light, do you honestly think the Bears would be looking for a better QB??

Look we can toss out a half dozen names that might be cheaper, and could be a good stopgap. But do we really think we are better off going back into QB hunt mode??

Oh and Cutler is under contract for $18M a year average, so its highly doubtful we get him for $10 million if he is really an 8-10 win QB.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

OK so you put a name to it, some one who might be able to do what Cousins did. Now the questions are

1. can we honestly expect Cutler to et any better than he is??
2. Would Cutler be anything more than a one year rental??
3. If any one really saw Cutler in this light, do you honestly think the Bears would be looking for a better QB??

Look we can toss out a half dozen names that might be cheaper, and could be a good stopgap. But do we really think we are better off going back into QB hunt mode??

Oh and Cutler is under contract for $18M a year average, so its highly doubtful we get him for $10 million if he is really an 8-10 win QB.

I believe Kyle got 7 wins out of cleveland with Hoyer and that stoner WR with immense talent.
It really depends on the coaching scheme and the execution. We've established Kirk as above average, and could possibly reach an elite level with better decision making in important games and better deep pass accuracy.
It is reasonable to think we could find someone who can win games and eventually do great numbers.
Its awesome Kirk set some personal records but where did that get the team?

keep in mind, I played both sides of the fence. Just because i believe there are guys who can win, doesn't mean i wouldn't prefer Cousins. Its like when ATL missed the playoffs last year, I doubt anyone was calling for Ryan's head.

 

[Sharkinva]

I believe Kyle got 7 wins out of cleveland with Hoyer and that stoner WR with immense talent.
It really depends on the coaching scheme and the execution. We've established Kirk as above average, and could possibly reach an elite level with better decision making in important games and better deep pass accuracy.
It is reasonable to think we could find someone who can win games and eventually do great numbers.
Its awesome Kirk set some personal records but where did that get the team?

keep in mind, I played both sides of the fence. Just because i believe there are guys who can win, doesn't mean i wouldn't prefer Cousins. Its like when ATL missed the playoffs last year, I doubt anyone was calling for Ryan's head.

It should have gotten the team to a spot where we arent still chasing the QB position. Lets call a pig what it is. If the Skins go in a different direction.. can you really deep down say we WONT be drafting a QB in the first round this year??

 

[Sportster 72]

Agreed you should always be in improvement mode. Thing is, he also wanted to quote the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So one has to wonder, how is proclaiming or attempting to proclaim the best QB we have had in 20 years STILL not good enough, not doing the same thing and expecting different results??

That is why I said I am not necessarily in lock step with Sty. I would sign Cousin's if it was my decision. If he costs more now it is only because a move wasn't made earlier which means there was a poor evaluation of talent.

I am not a GM or a talent scout. I don't see a QB in this draft that seems that he would be superior in even three years. Whether he has a good wide receiver corps or whatever else someone might deem has been helpful to him he has thrown for 9,000 yards and 52 touchdowns in the past two years. NO he is not Aaron Rodger or Tom Brady. I have said before and will say again ... if someone has a better plan and a better player lets get him.

JMO, not new news. As I have said many times that is going to be an interesting offseason. I get why some want to see results now. There are so many unknowns. Hope it works out well for us and the Redskins.

 

[Sharkinva]

That is why I said I am not necessarily in lock step with Sty. I would sign Cousin's if it was my decision. If he costs more now it is only because a move wasn't made earlier which means there was a poor evaluation of talent.

I am not a GM or a talent scout. I don't see a QB in this draft that seems that he would be superior in even three years. Whether he has a good wide receiver corps or whatever else someone might deem has been helpful to him he has thrown for 9,000 yards and 52 touchdowns in the past two years. NO he is not Aaron Rodger or Tom Brady. I have said before and will say again ... if someone has a better plan and a better player lets get him.

JMO, not new news. As I have said many times that is going to be an interesting offseason. I get why some want to see results now. There are so many unknowns. Hope it works out well for us and the Redskins.

Two of the top three QBs in this draft are more RG3 than I care for. Trubisky wouldnt upset me too much, but I think it takes 3 years to get to where Kirk currently is. Oh well except for the fact that he would also require us to some how get a top five pick. So if Kyle really wants a QB, I got to think he would be more inclined to spend ONE top five pick on Trubisky rather than trade for Kyle.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

It should have gotten the team to a spot where we arent still chasing the QB position. Lets call a pig what it is. If the Skins go in a different direction.. can you really deep down say we WONT be drafting a QB in the first round this year??

This is all i KNOW...we beat the Giants, and this whole off-season would be completely different.
Because of "one" game...the organization is on pins and needles.

 

[Sharkinva]

This is all i KNOW...we beat the Giants, and this whole off-season would be completely different.
Because of "one" game...the organization is on pins and needles.

I tend to think, we beat the Bengals, Lions and Dallas once.. in the games where we were leading and the defense did the bend over and take it.... the Giants game doesnt come down to a referendum on the QB.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

I tend to think, we beat the Bengals, Lions and Dallas once.. in the games where we were leading and the defense did the bend over and take it.... the Giants game doesnt come down to a referendum on the QB.

Cardinals or Panthers would have been nice too. Hey at 19mil the qb will always be the fall guy.
And yet, with just one more win, Cousins would be looking at a long term deal.
I'm sure they'll low ball him again, lol.
But you can imagine the kickback from a 2017 season where the skins miss the playoffs and Cousins still has 5 years left.

 

[Sharkinva]

Cardinals or Panthers would have been nice too. Hey at 19mil the qb will always be the fall guy.
And yet, with just one more win, Cousins would be looking at a long term deal.
I'm sure they'll low ball him again, lol.
But you can imagine the kickback from a 2017 season where the skins miss the playoffs and Cousins still has 5 years left.

I think its alot less than a 2017 where we miss the playoffs and Cousins isnt on the roster. If this team tanks, it will be for the same reasons it missed the playoffs this year. A defense that cant hold a lead more often than not, and a running game thats either red hot, or ice cold.

 

[Stymietee]

Agreed you should always be in improvement mode. Thing is, he also wanted to quote the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So one has to wonder, how is proclaiming or attempting to proclaim the best QB we have had in 20 years STILL not good enough, not doing the same thing and expecting different results??

..."STILL not good enough"....because there is evidence to support it, namely a failure to come to terms last year. Let's take it step by step.

--Team wanted to sign Kirk to a long term contract last year and offered $16million, Question... WHY?
--Surely Kirk and his reps countered with a number that team rejected, again Question...WHY?
--Team's GM publicly states that they will not overpay for QB or any position at the cost of neglecting other spots.
--Because he's the best we've had in 20 years, team kept it's promise to retain Kirk by franchising him. Interpretation: He's good enough, just not at a level where team will either meet his demands and/or overpay him.

While it's easy to blame management for failing to come to terms with Cousins, it is equally likely that Kirk is pricing himself out of here. Nowhere have I read, heard or have it insinuated that Kirk Cousins is a dumb man who's represented by equally stupid people. Therefore, I must conclude that in a two party negotiation, where he and his reps are half of said negotiation, they must have played a role in the failure to come to terms. It is a very one sided view of things that leads one to the position that the organization is doing the same thing and expecting different results. All that we currently know is that the team offered $16million, we do not know what the ensuing counters were, nor how locked in either side was on their numbers. For all we know the team could have ultimately met the market rate and Kirk and his people wanted more, but of course we seem to have forgotten that Dan Snyder is a well known spender.

 

[Sharkinva]

..."STILL not good enough"....because there is evidence to support it, namely a failure to come to terms last year. Let's take it step by step.

--Team wanted to sign Kirk to a long term contract last year and offered $16million, Question... WHY?
--Surely Kirk and his reps countered with a number that team rejected, again Question...WHY?
--Team's GM publicly states that they will not overpay for QB or any position at the cost of neglecting other spots.
--Because he's the best we've had in 20 years, team kept it's promise to retain Kirk by franchising him. Interpretation: He's good enough, just not at a level where team will either meet his demands and/or overpay him.

While it's easy to blame management for failing to come to terms with Cousins, it is equally likely that Kirk is pricing himself out of here. Nowhere have I read, heard or have it insinuated that Kirk Cousins is a dumb man who's represented by equally stupid people. Therefore, I must conclude that in a two party negotiation, where he and his reps are half of said negotiation, they must have played a role in the failure to come to terms. It is a very one sided view of things that leads one to the position that the organization is doing the same thing and expecting different results. All that we currently know is that the team offered $16million, we do not know what the ensuing counters were, nor how locked in either side was on their numbers. For all we know the team could have ultimately met the market rate and Kirk and his people wanted more, but of course we seem to have forgotten that Dan Snyder is a well known spender.

Bro.. IM just going to say this. When you come up with the equivalent of a masters degree thesis as to why the team should move in a different direction.. its hard for me to buy that it isnt a simple dislike of Cousins. The team lowballed him last year. Now I feel pretty safe in saying that if you knew you would get paid $20 million, but some one offered you $16 million, you would tell them to go fuck off. Now Kirk knows that some one is going to pay him $24 million, and I still doubt that if it were a different QB (as in the LAST QB before Cousins) in the same situation if you wouldnt be calling for the GM to just get the deal done and move forward. You can point out that we dont know what Cousins countered with, but why should he have to counter?? If the team only valued him at $16 million, they never should have tagged him in the first place. Time to either fish or cut bait. And for all the spin you are doing, I think you do want them to simply cut bait because long and short, Cousins just doesnt do it for you.

 

[Stymietee]

Bro.. IM just going to say this. When you come up with the equivalent of a masters degree thesis as to why the team should move in a different direction.. its hard for me to buy that it isnt a simple dislike of Cousins. The team lowballed him last year. Now I feel pretty safe in saying that if you knew you would get paid $20 million, but some one offered you $16 million, you would tell them to go fuck off. Now Kirk knows that some one is going to pay him $24 million, and I still doubt that if it were a different QB (as in the LAST QB before Cousins) in the same situation if you wouldnt be calling for the GM to just get the deal done and move forward. You can point out that we dont know what Cousins countered with, but why should he have to counter?? If the team only valued him at $16 million, they never should have tagged him in the first place. Time to either fish or cut bait. And for all the spin you are doing, I think you do want them to simply cut bait because long and short, Cousins just doesnt do it for you.

This is funny, it seems that you just can't let go of that other guy! You seem to want to believe that I am as stuck on him in the same fashion that you seem stuck on continuing the nonsensical idea that I am somehow, unable to separate rooting for what used to be, from, what currently is! Get over it. Larry Brown's not coming back here either and he was an ACTUAL favorite of mine. Neither is Sonny, another ACTUAL favorite if you need a QB.

So, now let's tackle what else you've written here.

OK, it's fair that you find it hard to believe that "it isn't a simple dislike of Cousins" that is but one of several ways to look at it and you're entitled.

Since you seem to want to lock onto that "Lowball offer" OK, let's play in your yard for a moment. If that employer came to me and offered me $16 million when I knew that I could get 20 million, after explaining publicly (and to me privately) that in doing so, success on the field would be affected negatively, then yes I would take the $16million, in exchange for that success.

Talk about spin, by definition this is what this word means.......(negotiations)
discussion aimed at reaching an agreement:
synonyms: discussion(s)
talks · deliberations · conference · debate · dialogue ·
consultation · mediation · arbitration · conciliation · arrangement · brokering · settlement · conclusion · completion · transaction
If Kirk and his people did as you have offered here, ("why should he have to counter??") then they walked away and subsequently were the single cause of there not being a long term contract reached a year ago. BTW: If that other guy would have been here instead of Kirk in the exact same situation my position would be completely and definitively UNCHANGED.

Finally, I've written over and over again that Kirk Cousins is a pretty good QB, they should sign him or tag him and in either case continue to look for an upgrade at the position and everywhere on the team, until there is no longer a NFL or Washington entry in the NFL. It's the smart thing to do!! I get it, your interpretation of this last part says to you that, I'm either dismissive of Kirk, or stuck in the past. Since I get to speak for myself, you're simply and totally wrong on both counts. It's well beyond that moment for those who haven't already, to move on.

 

[Breed]

Find me one poster that has said Kirk is Elite.

Not has played at an elite level at times, but Kirk is elite.

I'll wait.

G and redptc both, well G said it, reptec co-signed it, that they wouldn't trade Kirk for any other QB in the NFL for the next 5 years. I believe one or both also said no QB in football can/could do what Kirk does in Grudens offense.

Does that equate to Kirk, not his play, but Kirk himself, to being elite to you cuz it does to me.

When I opined that Kirk didn't make our pass catchers better and and an argument could be made that they (the pass catchers) have been waiting on Kirk. kbso opinbed that Kirk didn't uplift (make better is how I took uplifted) just the pass catchers. He uplifted the entire team. In otherwords Kirk made the entire team better than what they actually were by his play. This is where I believe j jumped into the deabte with both feet.

Now I don't know WTF y'all call em in your neck of the woods, but down yonder over here out the sticks we refer to those type players, players who have some an ability or gift, that by their play and leadership. They inspire those around thed tpo play better than they are capable of. yeah, out younder over here we call those elite, all day, everyday. You will find it all in the threads linled below. Or I'll find them for you if that's too daunting a task. I got time on my hands for while it appear.

Cousins Doesn't Deserve A Longterm Contract

Holy Moly! Give it a REST!!!


Now return the favor.

Find one post where I advocated for acquiring Watson or whatever Clemson' QB's name is.

Find a post by me or one where I'm just co-signing what someone else said saying we should get rid of Kirk.

I'll wait......for a really really really long time even cuz you'tre gonna need it.

All that aside though. The issue I believe I spoke up on the most amount. Was the Kirk got no help subplot that seemed to grow larger and larger with every post by the Kirk got no help crew. You beat the fuck out that drum all fuckin year far as the defense went. And I imagine you'll beat it some more. Even now knowingh where most of the resources went. Your SN should be Kirk Needs....he needs damn near an entirely new defense, a new running game and someone to take Moses spot you'd probably thow in as you have some kinda thing about Moses it seems. And oh, Kirk also needs 22 mill a year or more.

That's a whole lot needin for one player. I'm wondering though, does Kirk need to provide anything? Or is he flawless in your eyes. Cuz despite what you do or don't call him. That sure seems to be your mindset. You even wished for his sake that the Skins would tell him kick rocks.

Sigh,.,,,I'm tired now.I gotta go rest my neck.

 

[Sharkinva]

G and redptc both, well G said it, reptec co-signed it, that they wouldn't trade Kirk for any other QB in the NFL for the next 5 years. I believe one or both also said no QB in football can/could do what Kirk does in Grudens offense.

Does that equate to Kirk, not his play, but Kirk himself, to being elite to you cuz it does to me.

When I opined that Kirk didn't make our pass catchers better and and an argument could be made that they (the pass catchers) have been waiting on Kirk. kbso opinbed that Kirk didn't uplift (make better is how I took uplifted) just the pass catchers. He uplifted the entire team. In otherwords Kirk made the entire team better than what they actually were by his play. This is where I believe j jumped into the deabte with both feet.

Now I don't know WTF y'all call em in your neck of the woods, but down yonder over here out the sticks we refer to those type players, players who have some an ability or gift, that by their play and leadership. They inspire those around thed tpo play better than they are capable of. yeah, out younder over here we call those elite, all day, everyday. You will find it all in the threads linled below. Or I'll find them for you if that's too daunting a task. I got time on my hands for while it appear.

Cousins Doesn't Deserve A Longterm Contract

Holy Moly! Give it a REST!!!


Now return the favor.

Find one post where I advocated for acquiring Watson or whatever Clemson' QB's name is.

Find a post by me or one where I'm just co-signing what someone else said saying we should get rid of Kirk.

I'll wait......for a really really really long time even cuz you'tre gonna need it.

All that aside though. The issue I believe I spoke up on the most amount. Was the Kirk got no help subplot that seemed to grow larger and larger with every post by the Kirk got no help crew. You beat the fuck out that drum all fuckin year far as the defense went. And I imagine you'll beat it some more. Even now knowingh where most of the resources went. Your SN should be Kirk Needs....he needs damn near an entirely new defense, a new running game and someone to take Moses spot you'd probably thow in as you have some kinda thing about Moses it seems. And oh, Kirk also needs 22 mill a year or more.

That's a whole lot needin for one player. I'm wondering though, does Kirk need to provide anything? Or is he flawless in your eyes. Cuz despite what you do or don't call him. That sure seems to be your mindset. You even wished for his sake that the Skins would tell him kick rocks.

Sigh,.,,,I'm tired now.I gotta go rest my neck.

Well now I guess I should have qualified that better and said find me some one who said Cousins was elite that wasnt throwing it out there for shock value. But fair enough it was said.


So onto the real issues though.

Its rather a known fact that Kirk didnt get much help from the defense. But I guess its the nature of the beast, teams win games, QB's lose games. But to sit here and deny that the TEAM needs more help on defense when 90% of the rational world will tell you, the Redskins need more help and talent on defense... well thats just asinine.

Just as to say, well the offense had an overall average of 4.5 yards per game so they dont need to improve the ground game is again asinine when we had more than a couple of games where they didnt even have 50 yards rushing in the game.




As for his Salary, Kirk doesnt NEED $22M or more, but thats what its going to take to keep him because thats where the market for a starting QB is these days. But I swear on the money thing some of you guys sound like really old men with the whole "back in my day, these young whipper snappers would have gladly taken what the company offered and and not worried about what others were making."

At the end of the day its been shown that Aside from some really retarded number (upwards of $100M guaranteed) Kirks contract would not hinder this team from being able to improve in other areas. And before you blow a heart valve, Im not saying Kirk should get $100M guaranteed. Im just giving you a number where we would have to get in order for it to kill the teams ability to do anything else.


As far as what Kirk Needs, he needs to continue to improve, he isnt flawless... But he is a probably damn sight better than any QB available to us this coming off season. Because for all the trade talk, Green Bay aint giving us Rogers.