And the deflated balls story plot thickens

[Fencer]

Yup, most of the math and science seems on point here except 40 degrees F = 282 Kelvin. That changes the final answer of the first part from 11.5 psi to near 11.9 psi. Making a change in pressure of 13-11.9 = 1.1 psi. Since in this case it changed almost twice that, even with rain, it is improbable that temperature was the cause unless they were aired up in a much hotter room than 70 degrees F, which I suppose is still possible.

Also, keep in mind they measured the Colts balls as well and none of them were under regulation pressure. By the same math, even if they were inflated to the maximum 13.5 psi, you would get 12.3 psi which is also under regulation. Thus, something must be a bit off here. It could be a few things, one the assumption that the balls are aired up at 70 degrees F is incorrect or Amontons' Law (described as Guy-Lussac's Law here-name has changed) is not applicable as the assumption that a football is a rigid is incorrect. My guess is it is a little of both but the main issue is likely that a football only becomes rigid and of fixed in volume, under pressure which is not what this law was designed for.

Still great work by the scientist that put this together. They showed their work very well and it was very easy to follow. It was also a great idea on how to evaluate this situation and its author should be commended for all that.

I think given what I posted here and the significance of the pressure difference, it is pretty obvious someone deflated the balls. That said, its going to be tough to prove who did it, especially if the balls were in anyone elses procession. The only ways I think you can say no one purposely deflated the balls is if during one of the measuring periods, a bad gauge was used on only the Pats balls or if initially they were simply passed and not measured.

In the future, this whole thing could be avoided by simply putting the refs in charge of the balls and both teams play with the same balls. If the idea is to create a level playing field, whats more level than both teams using the same ball?

If the volume doesn't change it doesn't change, so I don't see what your point is about the footballs not being all that rigid, and indeed changing volume under pressure changes that weren't present in this case.

I get the point about the Colts' starting pressure supposedly being no more than 1 PSI above the Patriots, yet the ending pressure after equal treatment supposedly had a 2 PSI difference. However, those figures have not been reliably reported. Even if they had, the difference could be explained by the Colts' and Patriots' balls having different internal temperatures at the time of initial measurement.

You're entitled to wonder how such a difference is possible unless the Patriots fairly carefully planned for it, and in that respect I'm indeed on the side of the Patriot-doubters. But the evidence that the Patriots did anything wrong EXCEPT scheme carefully about the temperature at which they inflated their footballs is quite thin indeed.

 

[NEPatsfan]

LOL at Pats fans trying to explain this all away the same way JoePologists tried to explain away the events of the Sandusky rapes and PSUs corruption. Same rhythmic slapping noises of trying to explain it all away.

Make sure you hit us with the U of Oregon defense everytime their busted by the NCAA. "The rules are to complicated to understand!"

Ummm don't you think that just maybe letting a little air out of a football is on a somewhat smaller plane than the non reporting of the r*pe of young boys?

 

[DutchBird]

Maybe but I don't know if that's so true. At some point most admit it and move on. They realize the punishment is usually less that way. Isn't it? If they are really in that deep, claiming total innocence will just backfire. You start going a different way.

I don't know. It just seems like a disconnect.

Sometimes such cheaters become so self-deceptive, or have woven such a web of lies, they continue the lie and deny anything that contradicts that one. That assumes they do not consider themselves above the law in the first place.

Of course the way Goodell and the NFL dealt with Spy-Gate as well as other accusations around that time and before has only confirmed that their approach - deny, deny, deny - is probably the best way to go.

Apart from the fact that the punishment received for Spy-gate was an absolute joke in the first place, not in the least because it and possibly other forms of cheating might have netted them three Super Bowls.

 

[NEPatsfan]

Sometimes such cheaters become so self-deceptive, or have woven such a web of lies, they continue the lie and deny anything that contradicts that one. That assumes they do not consider themselves above the law in the first place.

Of course the way Goodell and the NFL dealt with Spy-Gate as well as other accusations around that time and before has only confirmed that their approach - deny, deny, deny - is probably the best way to go.

Apart from the fact that the punishment received for Spy-gate was an absolute joke in the first place, not in the least because it and possibly other forms of cheating might have netted them three Super Bowls.

Ummm why would you punish a team backwards in time?

I'm guessing you actually have no idea why they were actually punished or what it was actually about.

If you do cite for us the rule that was broken.

 

[TheRangerDude]

If the volume doesn't change it doesn't change, so I don't see what your point is about the footballs not being all that rigid, and indeed changing volume under pressure changes that weren't present in this case.

I get the point about the Colts' starting pressure supposedly being no more than 1 PSI above the Patriots, yet the ending pressure after equal treatment supposedly had a 2 PSI difference. However, those figures have not been reliably reported. Even if they had, the difference could be explained by the Colts' and Patriots' balls having different internal temperatures at the time of initial measurement.

You're entitled to wonder how such a difference is possible unless the Patriots fairly carefully planned for it, and in that respect I'm indeed on the side of the Patriot-doubters. But the evidence that the Patriots did anything wrong EXCEPT scheme carefully about the temperature at which they inflated their footballs is quite thin indeed.

The volume does change though. It takes pressure to make a football more rigid and it really isn't ever constant in volume under different pressures. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to squeeze the ball more at one pressure than another. A completely flat football has much less volume than one that is aired up. Thus, it takes pressure to make it rigid. That is not what the law used is intended for. It is intended to apply to something truely rigid like a steel container or a piston cavity where the piston is at a constant height.

The temperature theory is flawed. In order for it to have relavence, the balls would have needed to be aired up in a sauna.

 

[Rex Racer]

Yup, most of the math and science seems on point here except 40 degrees F = 282 Kelvin. That changes the final answer of the first part from 11.5 psi to near 11.9 psi. Making a change in pressure of 13-11.9 = 1.1 psi. Since in this case it changed almost twice that, even with rain, it is improbable that temperature was the cause unless they were aired up in a much hotter room than 70 degrees F, which I suppose is still possible.

Also, keep in mind they measured the Colts balls as well and none of them were under regulation pressure. By the same math, even if they were inflated to the maximum 13.5 psi, you would get 12.3 psi which is also under regulation. Thus, something must be a bit off here. It could be a few things, one the assumption that the balls are aired up at 70 degrees F is incorrect or Amontons' Law (described as Guy-Lussac's Law here-name has changed) is not applicable as the assumption that a football is a rigid is incorrect. My guess is it is a little of both but the main issue is likely that a football only becomes rigid and of fixed in volume, under pressure which is not what this law was designed for.

Still great work by the scientist that put this together. They showed their work very well and it was very easy to follow. It was also a great idea on how to evaluate this situation and its author should be commended for all that.

I think given what I posted here and the significance of the pressure difference, it is pretty obvious someone deflated the balls. That said, its going to be tough to prove who did it, especially if the balls were in anyone elses procession. The only ways I think you can say no one purposely deflated the balls is if during one of the measuring periods, a bad gauge was used on only the Pats balls or if initially they were simply passed and not measured.

In the future, this whole thing could be avoided by simply putting the refs in charge of the balls and both teams play with the same balls. If the idea is to create a level playing field, whats more level than both teams using the same ball?

What was the barometric pressure in Foxboro 2 hours before game time when the balls were supposedly checked by the incompetent officials and what was it after the game?



I'm not disagreeing with you BTW, I'm just throwing a little bit of chum in the water for those that have gone apoplectic over this.

 

[Jim Rome is Flaming]

Blah Blah Blah....it is now the referees fault...GOOD GRIEF! Maybe the Cheatriots should just be disbanded?

How in the fuck is someone a Rams, Giants & Broncos fan?

 

[TheRangerDude]

What was the barometric pressure in Foxboro 2 hours before game time when the balls were supposedly checked by the incompetent officials and what was it after the game?



I'm not disagreeing with you BTW, I'm just throwing a little bit of chum in the water for those that have gone apoplectic over this.

Honestly I don't think it matters. The fact that the colts balls were all still of regulation pressure sort of shuts down this whole atmospheric argument. That is to say that if the Pats balls at least changed a full 2 psi then so should the Colts. If the Colts were within regulation before the game, even if they went in at the maximum 13.5psi, a change of 2psi would still put them in under regulation.

Thats said, I suppose you could argue that maybe the colts aired up their balls in a cooler area but it would have to be around 20 degrees difference for any significant differences between pressure changes the 2 teams balls.

 

[Jim Rome is Flaming]

OMG...they just found the equipment manager's car:

They didn't happen to find a white suit in the car, did they?

 

[TheRangerDude]

Honestly I don't think it matters. The fact that the colts balls were all still of regulation pressure sort of shuts down this whole atmospheric argument. That is to say that if the Pats balls at least changed a full 2 psi then so should the Colts. If the Colts were within regulation before the game, even if they went in at the maximum 13.5psi, a change of 2psi would still put them in under regulation.

Thats said, I suppose you could argue that maybe the colts aired up their balls in a cooler area but it would have to be around 20 degrees difference for any significant differences between pressure changes the 2 teams balls.

Actually, I take that last part back. It wouldn't matter where they were aired up it would be the temperature of where they were measured initially and seeing as how the were both measured at the same time, its highly unlikely such a temperature difference existed. In fact the were likely measured at the same temperature in the same room.

So, now that I think about it... the place where the balls were inflated and its temperature is irrelevant. Whats relavent is the temperature of where they were measured initially and this was likely almost the same between the 2 teams balls.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

They cheated.

You hope.

 

[Yankee Traveler]

Blah Blah Blah....it is now the referees fault...GOOD GRIEF! Maybe the Cheatriots should just be disbanded?

If you can't beat'em...get 'em disbanded!

 

[NWPATSFAN]

The volume does change though. It takes pressure to make a football more rigid and it really isn't ever constant in volume under different pressures. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to squeeze the ball more at one pressure than another. A completely flat football has much less volume than one that is aired up. Thus, it takes pressure to make it rigid. That is not what the law used is intended for. It is intended to apply to something truely rigid like a steel container or a piston cavity where the piston is at a constant height.

The temperature theory is flawed. In order for it to have relavence, the balls would have needed to be aired up in a sauna.

If you're using Boyle's Law to explain yourself you are forgetting the temperature must be constant. Meaning the temp of the air being put into the ball as well as in this case the ambient temperature outside the ball/s. pV=C. Dalton and Avogadro's Law also address constant. So not only would a sauna elevate the temp of the air but so would how quickly the air is forced into the object (in this case the football) as well as the actual temperature of the air being pumped in? Do teams use compressors to fill their footballs? Do they start with an empty ball thus requiring more volume to fill the ball? Directly effects the air temp.

 

[SteelersPride]

science all u want, how did all the pats balls change, but none of the colts???

 

[Yankee Traveler]

This just in...

Here's the guy the Patriots are setting up to take the fall.

Fitting.

Fuckin Jets Fan.

 

[WizardHawk]

science all u want, how did all the pats balls change, but none of the colts???

Some are insisting they must have super heated the ball just prior to testing the first time. I mean the refs wouldn't have noticed the thing being hot right?

Theoretically they could use a different gas besides just air. One that is more dense with a larger temperature differential effect between room temp and the outside. Either would work if they were only weighing them like the reports say now. Neither are likely. It's armchair wannabe detectives trying desperately to be the smartest people online.

There was no natural weather/temperature related reason for all of one set of balls to deflate that far and not the others. It has been well explained already that nothing would have made them lose that much by temperature and humidity alone. But some desperately want to hold onto some thought other than Brady being both a cheater and now a liar.

 

[SteelersPride]

well belicheats presser cleared that up today

 

[WizardHawk]

well belicheats presser cleared that up today

I'll believe it only after it is independently verified. I mean why would anyone buy something he says at this point?

 

[NWPATSFAN]

science all u want, how did all the pats balls change, but none of the colts???

At least I'm using facts to explain what "MAY" have happened. Others just jumping on here stating vehemently that they cheated. As if they were the ones letting the air out.

Do both teams inflate their balls as the same time? Same location? Same amount? This could very easily explain the difference between the Colts and Pats footballs' pressures.

See my other posts I'm not claiming the Pats innocence. Just throwing out possibilities backed by science not hatred or homerism.

 

[SteelersPride]

no im just asking,

its a real real real longshot on your part though, and IF they were all weighed pre-game your arguments become moot.