AL Central Discussion

[WiggyRuss]

Ramirez is the best offenseive guy on either team. Hes also like the oldest.

And one guy doesnt make anything we are seeing it now.

You say holes can be plugged but the Twins cant plug two rotation holes?? Thats literally how they ended up with Lopez, Gray and Maeda. THey have Paddock coming back already as depth. Varland if needed as another. They could easily go out and sign a Lorenzen type.

There is no worry about contracts. Really the only issue with the guys you mentioned is Buxton/Vazquez just clogging up roster space tbh.

Really the less the Twins spend in the off season on depth bats the better. Thats why their offense has begun to take off. They are letting Kirilloff/Julien/Wallner/Jeffers/Lewis all play and we have been leading the league in offense since the break. Lee will be up next year. Larnach either figures it out or is a trade piece for pitching. They have Severino/Prato/Williams all trying to find room.

Guardians have like 7 question marks in their lineup.

I would say Naylor has been better offensively this year than anyone on the Twins.

Kwan is a good leadoff guy- he is 5th in the AL in runs right now.

Gimenez is not a top 6 MVP and 7+ win player like last year- but I certainly think he is a solid regular and not anything close to a question mark.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

I would say Naylor has been better offensively this year than anyone on the Twins.

Kwan is a good leadoff guy- he is 5th in the AL in runs right now.

Gimenez is not a top 6 MVP and 7+ win player like last year- but I certainly think he is a solid regular and not anything close to a question mark.

Kwan has an OPS of .712 and OPS+ of 100. Hes the literal definition of average. Hes not some eye sore but when your only offense is Ramirez in his 30s and Naylor that isnt ideal.

Naylor also still doesnt have much power so hes mostly dependent on his .300 average being more the new norm than his .267 career average. Which is entire possible due to the fact hes 26 and entering prime age. But again, if thats your 2 its not a lot of margin for error.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I mean- there will be question marks if guys can hit- but the Guardians look pretty stable around the diamond for the most part- the Twins have a lot of young pieces - but its kind of unclear how it all fits together- who will be there and who wont

C. Bo Naylor- obviously going to be the starting catcher- plenty of upside
1B. Josh Naylor- solid hitter
2B. Gimenez- somewhere between the Top 6 in MVP voting last year and what he has done this year
3B. Ramirez- perennial all star
SS. I would guess Rocchio.

Infield defense- Rocchio, Ramirez and Gimenez is absolutely top notch. One of the best in the league easily fielding wise.

OF- Kwan - somewhere- I hope center- but probably in left
OF-
OF- who knows- internal- Valera, Gonzalez, Brennan , Straw- external? - 90M payroll last year- prob. tick up a little bit I would say- get rid of Bell, Civale, Zunino, Rosario.....should have some money to play with.

DH- probably Manzardo sharing it with someone they get in the offseason

rotation is going to be one of the better ones in the AL if you ask me- whether or not they keep Bieber- if they keep Bieber itll contend for a top 3 rotation I would think. Bieber is having a "bad" year where he obviously pitched through injury and is at a 3.77 era- a lot of pitchers would kill for that year- and that is a "bad year" for him.

Bieber, McKenzie, Williams, Bibee, Allen, Quintrell, Espino, Cantillo...pretty darn solid.

Clase- def. not the world beater he was last year- but I still think he leads the league in saves.



I think the Guards need an OF bat badly. Another cheap bat to help at DH or outfield. And a reliever if Karinchak never gets back. Not much.

much of their improvement should come from health and organic growth. I think the industry as a whole really likes Bo Naylor, Rocchio, Gimenez and Kwan and expect all of them to be significantly better as they gain experience.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

I mean- there will be question marks if guys can hit- but the Guardians look pretty stable around the diamond for the most part- the Twins have a lot of young pieces - but its kind of unclear how it all fits together- who will be there and who wont

C. Bo Naylor- obviously going to be the starting catcher- plenty of upside
1B. Josh Naylor- solid hitter
2B. Gimenez- somewhere between the Top 6 in MVP voting last year and what he has done this year
3B. Ramirez- perennial all star
SS. I would guess Rocchio.

Infield defense- Rocchio, Ramirez and Gimenez is absolutely top notch. One of the best in the league easily fielding wise.

OF- Kwan - somewhere- I hope center- but probably in left
OF-
OF- who knows- internal- Valera, Gonzalez, Brennan , Straw- external? - 90M payroll last year- prob. tick up a little bit I would say- get rid of Bell, Civale, Zunino, Rosario.....should have some money to play with.

DH- probably Manzardo sharing it with someone they get in the offseason

rotation is going to be one of the better ones in the AL if you ask me- whether or not they keep Bieber- if they keep Bieber itll contend for a top 3 rotation I would think. Bieber is having a "bad" year where he obviously pitched through injury and is at a 3.77 era- a lot of pitchers would kill for that year- and that is a "bad year" for him.

Bieber, McKenzie, Williams, Bibee, Allen, Quintrell, Espino, Cantillo...pretty darn solid.

Clase- def. not the world beater he was last year- but I still think he leads the league in saves.



I think the Guards need an OF bat badly. Another cheap bat to help at DH or outfield. And a reliever if Karinchak never gets back. Not much.

much of their improvement should come from health and organic growth. I think the industry as a whole really likes Bo Naylor, Rocchio, Gimenez and Kwan and expect all of them to be significantly better as they gain experience.

Dude you are a constant walking contradiction.

When talking about the Twins everything is an issue. But for the Guardians its not.

Like example we already went over how McKenzie is somehow already proven(hes really not). But for sake of argument fine. But then you say the Twins young pitchers arent.

But in the same breath you dont call Gimenez or Kwan or any of the Guardians hitters question marks. When in reality they have actually now proven to take a massive step back. Like they have shown their entire season last year was a fluke. Now again they could show next year that this year is the fluke sure. But they are the unproven ones. Like thats exactly what a question mark is. What Gimenez are you going to get? MVP potential or a guy who belongs backing up Austin Martin in AAA for the twins?

From technical stand point you havent seen Ober tank. You talk about Lewis not having enough ABs. Even tho every AAA and MLB stint he rakes. But Lewis unlike Gimenez has yet to show a stretch of abomination at the plate.

You have got to stop flip flopping.

And as for your bolded. That was your most insane take yet. Its the Guardians pieces we havent seen how they "fit together" because to this point they all suck offensively.

We know how the Twins youth fit they are all litearlly getting called up and leading the team in OPS right now haha. And the rest are playing together in AAA and mashing down there. What are you talking about. The only question mark is how to get ALL OF THEM up here. Cause you legally can only play 9 guys.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Dude you are a constant walking contradiction.

When talking about the Twins everything is an issue. But for the Guardians its not.

Like example we already went over how McKenzie is somehow already proven(hes really not). But for sake of argument fine. But then you say the Twins young pitchers arent.

But in the same breath you dont call Gimenez or Kwan or any of the Guardians hitters question marks. When in reality they have actually now proven to take a massive step back. Like they have shown their entire season last year was a fluke. Now again they could show next year that this year is the fluke sure. But they are the unproven ones. Like thats exactly what a question mark is. What Gimenez are you going to get? MVP potential or a guy who belongs backing up Austin Martin in AAA for the twins?

From technical stand point you havent seen Ober tank. You talk about Lewis not having enough ABs. Even tho every AAA and MLB stint he rakes. But Lewis unlike Gimenez has yet to show a stretch of abomination at the plate.

You have got to stop flip flopping.

And as for your bolded. That was your most insane take yet. Its the Guardians pieces we havent seen how they "fit together" because to this point they all suck offensively.

We know how the Twins youth fit they are all litearlly getting called up and leading the team in OPS right now haha. And the rest are playing together in AAA and mashing down there. What are you talking about. The only question mark is how to get ALL OF THEM up here. Cause you legally can only play 9 guys.

who are the Twins young pitchers?

I think Ober will be solid. I think Ryan will be solid. Lopez is good. That is 3 guys. I am not sure who else they even have that has much major league experience or is highly rated coming down the pipeline pitching wise.

In a good year where your health is on the lucky side you still usually need 8 starters....in a year where the luck is not so good like the Guards this year you might need to go 10-11-12 deep starting wise.

just looking at MLB.com top prospects on the Twins top 30- looks like their #1 pitching prospect is currently in A ball. another guy thats 21 in AA.

Gray might be gone. Maeda might be gone or in line for a decent raise. Ryan has a 4.43 ERA and is currently hurt- but should be at least solid next year. Hopefully better than this year and I think that is reasonable to assume.

Ober is a late bloomer. Will be 29 next year. This is just his 3rd season. Looks pretty consistent. Not scaring anyone but a nice mid rotation guy.

Lopez has been pretty consistent his entire career- good pitcher- not great. This is year 6. usually he is right around where he is right now....3.81 ERA...last year 3.75, year before 3.07, year before 3.61, year before 5.09. year before 4.14. Next year I bet he is around a 170 innings (if he stays healthy) and pitches to about a 3.3 to 3.8 ERA. Congratulations. Your a slightly better Quintrell that strikes guys out much more often.

they will def. be spending some money on SP I would guess to round out the rotation since it doesnst seem like much high quality help is that close.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

who are the Twins young pitchers?

I think Ober will be solid. I think Ryan will be solid. Lopez is good. That is 3 guys. I am not sure who else they even have that has much major league experience or is highly rated coming down the pipeline pitching wise.

In a good year where your health is on the lucky side you still usually need 8 starters....in a year where the luck is not so good like the Guards this year you might need to go 10-11-12 deep starting wise.

just looking at MLB.com top prospects on the Twins top 30- looks like their #1 pitching prospect is currently in A ball. another guy thats 21 in AA.

Gray might be gone. Maeda might be gone or in line for a decent raise. Ryan has a 4.43 ERA and is currently hurt- but should be at least solid next year. Hopefully better than this year and I think that is reasonable to assume.

Ober is a late bloomer. Will be 29 next year. This is just his 3rd season. Looks pretty consistent. Not scaring anyone but a nice mid rotation guy.

Lopez has been pretty consistent his entire career- good pitcher- not great. This is year 6. usually he is right around where he is right now....3.81 ERA...last year 3.75, year before 3.07, year before 3.61, year before 5.09. year before 4.14. Next year I bet he is around a 170 innings (if he stays healthy) and pitches to about a 3.3 to 3.8 ERA. Congratulations. Your a slightly better Quintrell that strikes guys out much more often.

they will def. be spending some money on SP I would guess to round out the rotation since it doesnst seem like much high quality help is that close.

They have Ryan, Ober, Lopez, Paddock, Varland 100% ready to go. With zero adds. The Twins always add starters and they will again.

Again, your biggest issue is you look at stats noone looks at. Lopez is one of the best pitchers in the american league this year. His ERA is a fluke and its why hes been on a tear since June 1.

Quantril has a career FIP of 4.22. As we said months ago me and Nava his regression was as blatantly as humanly possible.

Lopez has a career FIP of 3.66.

Hes lightyears better than Quantril. He doesnt just strike out guys more. He allows fewer hits per 9. Walks fewer per 9. He hasnt allowed anywhere in the ball park of a hit per inning since he turned 24.

Lopez fwar for the year is higher than Arraez and hes been the most valuable pitcher in baseball since June 1. His ascension was coming because every underlying metric from April and May said he was extremely unlucky.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Ober is getting absolutely BABIP'd tonight. Sometimes youre just unlucky.

Tigers have 8 hits through 4 innings. Ober has 8 K's. Meaning they are 8/12 when they put the ball in play(last 2 outs were actually in play so it was 8/10). Only 1 of the hits was over 100 mph.

In the first two innings they had 4 runs on 6 hits and a brutal error. 5 Ks. So all but one ball in play ended up in a single or double.

Tigers have 0 homers and all 8 Ks are swinging.

That you just dont see often.

 

[WiggyRuss]

They have Ryan, Ober, Lopez, Paddock, Varland 100% ready to go. With zero adds. The Twins always add starters and they will again.

Again, your biggest issue is you look at stats noone looks at. Lopez is one of the best pitchers in the american league this year. His ERA is a fluke and its why hes been on a tear since June 1.

Quantril has a career FIP of 4.22. As we said months ago me and Nava his regression was as blatantly as humanly possible.

Lopez has a career FIP of 3.66.

Hes lightyears better than Quantril. He doesnt just strike out guys more. He allows fewer hits per 9. Walks fewer per 9. He hasnt allowed anywhere in the ball park of a hit per inning since he turned 24.

Lopez fwar for the year is higher than Arraez and hes been the most valuable pitcher in baseball since June 1. His ascension was coming because every underlying metric from April and May said he was extremely unlucky.

I underestand what FIP, WAR + etc. etc. etc. are--- it just comes down to the fact that Lopez is pretty consistently what he is.

Paddack has a loooong way to go to be a guy that can be even partially depended upon. I might as well bring up Cody Morris. Varland has 15 career starts to a ERA of 5.00.

I think guys like Paddack and Varland are depth guys like Cody Morris, Peyton Beyttonfield and Hunter Gaddis.

Lopez has been on a nice run- and to his credit- he always seems better than his stats play- usually because he is pretty good for a while and then has a terrible outting here or there

that being said- lately he has faced some shit lineups. Since July started hes gone

KC, OAK, SEA, SEA, STL, DET.......thats pretty weak. Now if he has a solid Game 1 in the playoffs I will raise my opinion of him as more than a guy who has a 3.5-4.0 ERA consistently throughout his career.

 

[WiggyRuss]

although i gotta say- surprisingly for Lopez a lot of his worst games are against shit lineups...OAK, CLE, WSH, KC.....he took time off at one point this season for mental issues didnt he?

 

[WiggyRuss]

another solid start for a CLE rook they are gonna waste....unreal. Gotta get an outfielder- and hope Manzardo is what you thought he was when you gave up 2.5 years of Civale for him. Having Valera justify the hype would be nice too.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Gavin Williams- is being limited to less than a 100 pitches a start- most he has thrown is 94- whenever it gets close they pull him

but he has faced some pretty good lineups lately in his run

he has gone:

TEX, PHI, KC, HOU, TOR his last 5 starts and given up a combined 5runs in 25 innings. 1.8 ERA, 30 k's.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Ober is getting absolutely BABIP'd tonight. Sometimes youre just unlucky.

Tigers have 8 hits through 4 innings. Ober has 8 K's. Meaning they are 8/12 when they put the ball in play(last 2 outs were actually in play so it was 8/10). Only 1 of the hits was over 100 mph.

In the first two innings they had 4 runs on 6 hits and a brutal error. 5 Ks. So all but one ball in play ended up in a single or double.

Tigers have 0 homers and all 8 Ks are swinging.

That you just dont see often.

weird game for him

crappy DET lineup....most K's of the season with 9, most hits of the season with11

 

[mr.hockey4242]

I underestand what FIP, WAR + etc. etc. etc. are--- it just comes down to the fact that Lopez is pretty consistently what he is.

Paddack has a loooong way to go to be a guy that can be even partially depended upon. I might as well bring up Cody Morris. Varland has 15 career starts to a ERA of 5.00.

I think guys like Paddack and Varland are depth guys like Cody Morris, Peyton Beyttonfield and Hunter Gaddis.

Lopez has been on a nice run- and to his credit- he always seems better than his stats play- usually because he is pretty good for a while and then has a terrible outting here or there

that being said- lately he has faced some shit lineups. Since July started hes gone

KC, OAK, SEA, SEA, STL, DET.......thats pretty weak. Now if he has a solid Game 1 in the playoffs I will raise my opinion of him as more than a guy who has a 3.5-4.0 ERA consistently throughout his career.

Paddack has far more established track record then any of those guys haha. And hes another FIP guy that was the product of an extremely fluky 2021.

Varland has a home run issue but is constantly requested in trades because he projects to be a very solid back end rotation guy.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Ober is prob. starting to get a little tired. Looking at the minors too- it looks like he is getting towards- or at the most innings he has ever pitched in his career and still has almost 2 more months to go.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

although i gotta say- surprisingly for Lopez a lot of his worst games are against shit lineups...OAK, CLE, WSH, KC.....he took time off at one point this season for mental issues didnt he?

Wrong Lopez on the mental issues, that Lopez is shipped out of town.

Pablo has actually be very strong against good teams for the most part.

Really our pitchers issues is the weaker teams many times. And bottom of the orders. Lopez has trouble putting away 8/9 guys. Ober has ran into trouble against the Royals and Tigers.

Our guys dont allow a ton of hits normally and I think against bad hitters/lineups those are the type that spray weak contact and sometimes it scatters.

Weve actually pitched mostly really well against a lot of the AL east and West teams fighting for playoffs.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Paddack has far more established track record then any of those guys haha. And hes another FIP guy that was the product of an extremely fluky 2021.

Varland has a home run issue but is constantly requested in trades because he projects to be a very solid back end rotation guy.

PAddack had a good rookie year and since then has been kinda crappy and injured.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I am really surprised Torkelson is only hitting .227 on the year. He has shown more power lately. At least for Detroit Greene looks like the real deal.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

The real issue with this Twins team is still our GM. Just an all around moron at his job.

We have Kyle Farmer still getting key ABs. Game was still close when that loser swung at everything in sight and Struck out. He cant play everyday.

Bullpen continually implodes with the bridge guys in middle leverage because he refused to trade for relievers when it was a blatantly known issue. Moran? Trash. Balazovic had a 4.79 in AAA. What did he think would happen??

He just chose to see Cleveland punt and decided to just do nothing. And he should lose his job.

 

[WiggyRuss]

top of the order in the bottom of the 9th for the Guards---- if they lose 1-0 its really pathetic. Allen, Williams and Bibee combine to pitch 19 innings of 1 run ball in this 3 game series.