2015 Pirates

[thecrow124]

I was going to reply to individual posts, but decided just to make one post.

For the record Pedro Alvarez sucks, I don't care if it is at first base, third base or anywhere in between, if he is on the field we are a worse team. I find it almost unbelievable, but he is also almost to the point of being untradeable as well since he will provide negative value for them money he will be getting paid. That being said, Ike Davis and Gaby Sanchez suck as well, and nontendering all three was probably the best move that could have been made. Heck I would take Mark Reynolds over all three if all we are looking for is power at the first base position.

The arguements on Liz are legitimate, however, I didn't hear the same complaints last year when John Holdzcom was added to the team with a much dimmer history than Liz and he is another player that all the sudden just figured something out. It is not out of the realm of possibility that Liz has as well. The difference is that Liz can and has been working as a starter, and if the Pirates see him as such, 2/$3 million could be a steal, and if he sucks, it is not a deal that is going to hurt the team going forward. Remember we did pay Wandy $7.5 million last season to stay away from the baseball field.

Where I believe the management team is making a mistake is not getting in on the second tier pitchers right now, since we all know they are not going to even talk to the top tier, which I believe is also a mistake. If Liriano says he wants 3/$36, then it should be a no brainer for us to sign him, we were willing to pay $15.3 million for one season so an aas of $12 million should be well within our grasp.I would go so far as to say it is a discount. I know I said earlier that it is ok to wait and try to get him at a reduced cost, and I stand by that, but if he makes it to the point that other teams get involved, the cost could rise, right now I am not sure that any other team would have even contacted him.

 

[Illinest]

These are ridiculous arguments.
Davis has more in common with Jose Bautista than any player we've released since Jose Bautista. He's cheap enough that no other team would refuse to pay him and there's legitimate reason to think that he could explode if the right adjustments are made. He's got a good approach, reasonable strikeout numbers and more power than he has been showing.

Why would any of you argue that Liz can be fixed, and is therefore worth the risk, yet in the same breath argue that a better player who has less to fix is not worth keeping around during the age 28 season, which is the median season for career years for hitters?

Your arguments aren't consistent. The strategy is of questionable value anyways but if either player is worth taking a chance on it's Davis.

And yet you guys support Liz. You all seem to think that he's bound to be the next successful reclamation but none of you ever remember how bad half of these reclamation pitchers have been.

This inconsistency is frustrating. If you want to have an opinion then at least be consistent with it. Don't change your mind all the time.

 

[thecrow124]

These are ridiculous arguments.
Davis has more in common with Jose Bautista than any player we've released since Jose Bautista. He's cheap enough that no other team would refuse to pay him and there's legitimate reason to think that he could explode if the right adjustments are made. He's got a good approach, reasonable strikeout numbers and more power than he has been showing.

Why would any of you argue that Liz can be fixed, and is therefore worth the risk, yet in the same breath argue that a better player who has less to fix is not worth keeping around during the age 28 season, which is the median season for career years for hitters?

Your arguments aren't consistent. The strategy is of questionable value anyways but if either player is worth taking a chance on it's Davis.

And yet you guys support Liz. You all seem to think that he's bound to be the next successful reclamation but none of you ever remember how bad half of these reclamation pitchers have been.

This inconsistency is frustrating. If you want to have an opinion then at least be consistent with it. Don't change your mind all the time.

I am not sure to whom you are referring, but I didn't like the Davis trade and I never like him as a player, I can't even remember saying anything positive about him. The same goes for Pedro, I don't recall ever saying anything positive about him either. So, speaking for me only, my opinion has never changed. As for which of the first base options should have been retained, I am on record as saying I would release all three. Out of the three, if you were to tell me 2 years from now one of them slashed .265/.350/.450 and gave me one guess, I would guess Davis, but I also believe the odds of any of them doing that are slim

I don't believe I have ever expressed an opinion on Liz before my last post, and that would be an honest assessment, he might be good and he might be bad, either way it is not that much money.

 

[steelparrot]

A's Acquire Ike Davis

Is this our first international slot $$$ trade?

 

[Illinest]

Shocked that the "big market As" are willing to make the trade AND pay arbitration award to Davis just to be the backup 1B.

We're really being oppressed by the economics of baseball when the As of all teams are spending that much on their backup 1B and the Marlins just handed out the biggest contract...
ever?
Yeah I think it is, isn't it?

I wish I didn't have to be pissed off about this damn relief pitcher, but when your owners are competing to be the cheapest owners in baseball every year you learn to expect that the 3 million dollar scrap-heap guys are the only guys that you're likely to get.

 

[element1286]

Liz and Davis aren't connected, any argument attempting to connect them is just flat out ridiculous.

 

[Illinest]

Bullshit.

We're moving Alvarez to make room for a guy who doesn't need to play 3b, and we're ditching a decent major leaguer who has major upside just because he costs too much. This is exactly the same as it was with Bautista. They said there wasn't a spot for him but in reality it was because these fuckwads just didn't want to spend the money.

But then they turn around and give multi-million dollar contracts to the weirdest people. They take money away from decent bets and give it to people like Bedard, Barajas, Volquez. Liz.

This is willful self-harm. It's like they're trying to tank.

Hey, they made the playoffs . Most of the best players were acquired by the Littlefield regime, but NH gets to take all the credit right?

This is such a sickening bullshit couple of seasons.

 

[element1286]

Bullshit.

We're moving Alvarez to make room for a guy who doesn't need to play 3b, and we're ditching a decent major leaguer who has major upside just because he costs too much. This is exactly the same as it was with Bautista. They said there wasn't a spot for him but in reality it was because these fuckwads just didn't want to spend the money.

But then they turn around and give multi-million dollar contracts to the weirdest people. They take money away from decent bets and give it to people like Bedard, Barajas, Volquez. Liz.

This is willful self-harm. It's like they're trying to tank.

Hey, they made the playoffs . Most of the best players were acquired by the Littlefield regime, but NH gets to take all the credit right?

This is such a sickening bullshit couple of seasons.

Unreal, after two straight playoff appearances you can still post crap like the this.

I don't necessarily agree with these moves, but outside the one season he had 150 PA's Ike Davis has been a 110 RC+ type, and he had a pretty serious medical problem between then and now. I don't see the upside at all. If anything he pretty consistently serviceable with little upside.

As for Liz, I have no idea.

 

[TheBurgh88]

Now that Boston is getting Panda and Hanley watch them grab Liriano too and we really get hosed on a high draft pick or do we still get a sandwich pick after the first even though Boston would now lose a later pick?

These rules confuse me.

 

[Illinest]

Yeah. after two straight playoff appearances i'm more convinced than ever that we're being dicked around.
Record attendance, more revenue than ever before and better broadcast rights deals, yet here we sit with a 70 million-ish payroll again.

And meanwhile 3 out of the Pirates best position players were in the system before NH took the job, and the only 1 that NH added is now gone.

The rotation is shit. Cole and a bunch of bottom of rotation types.
We're getting ready to platoon two backup catchers together to replace a guy who got MVP votes.

When we didn't do anything meaningful in the previous offseason I complained about how we were getting worse, and spreading our hopes too thin and I was right. We were not as competitive in 2014. Now we're doing it again. We should be trying to improve the team, but instead he's cutting corners.


And I'm not up in here demanding things that don't make sense for us. I didn't say a word when Martin signed elsewhere because that contract genuinely doesn't make sense for us, but we need major pitching upgrades. We ought to be trying to sign Lester or Shields AND Liriano.
Instead there's a rumor going around that we "might" be able to afford to bring Volquez back.

Fucking bullshit.

 

[thecrow124]

Yeah. after two straight playoff appearances i'm more convinced than ever that we're being dicked around.
Record attendance, more revenue than ever before and better broadcast rights deals, yet here we sit with a 70 million-ish payroll again.

And meanwhile 3 out of the Pirates best position players were in the system before NH took the job, and the only 1 that NH added is now gone.

The rotation is shit. Cole and a bunch of bottom of rotation types.
We're getting ready to platoon two backup catchers together to replace a guy who got MVP votes.

When we didn't do anything meaningful in the previous offseason I complained about how we were getting worse, and spreading our hopes too thin and I was right. We were not as competitive in 2014. Now we're doing it again. We should be trying to improve the team, but instead he's cutting corners.


And I'm not up in here demanding things that don't make sense for us. I didn't say a word when Martin signed elsewhere because that contract genuinely doesn't make sense for us, but we need major pitching upgrades. We ought to be trying to sign Lester or Shields AND Liriano.
Instead there's a rumor going around that we "might" be able to afford to bring Volquez back.

Fucking bullshit.

I am legitimately interested in signing Lester and Liriano, heck at the same time trade for Hamels, and I say this with all sincerity, three left handers of that quality would make a formidable rotation, even without Cole. But with Cole we would have to be the favorites to win the NL. I also agree that we have the money to spend, but if we do, we can't spend a lot for things like relief pitchers.

 

[Darkstone42]

I am legitimately interested in signing Lester and Liriano, heck at the same time trade for Hamels, and I say this with all sincerity, three left handers of that quality would make a formidable rotation, even without Cole. But with Cole we would have to be the favorites to win the NL. I also agree that we have the money to spend, but if we do, we can't spend a lot for things like relief pitchers.

Lester+Liriano would be the ideal conclusion to this offseason for me. Adding Hamels would be amazing, obviously, but I'm not sure the cost in prospects would be worth it, especially if it costs us bats in our system, since that's our weakness, I think, through the minors and even into the Majors, especially if we were to sign both Lester and Liriano.

Basically, I would wonder about his value behind those two other lefties, with a chance for Taillon much later this year, Burnett and Morton both projecting to be at least useful when healthy, Kingham and Worley as decent depth options. If it would cost us Bell, who I really think is our future first baseman, I don't think Hamels would be worth it in a rotation already including Lester, Cole, and Liriano. Hamels is an option, however, if we fail to sign Lester and/or Liriano, and at that point, forfeiting a future bat would be worth it.

I'd probably stay away from Shields and Scherzer, though. I see those two getting a lot of money and fading fairly quickly afterward, becoming drags on the team, the payroll, and being unmovable.

 

[Darkstone42]

At the absolute very least, though, I think we need to sign one of Liriano, Lester, or Santana, or trade for Hamels. If we only get one of those guys, adding a lower-end starter like McCarthy, Anderson, or Billingsley would be the next step. Shields and Scherzer don't especially interest me, but if we get one on a good deal (extremely unlikely), go for it. If the best starter we sign is one of those lower-tier guys, the front office will have failed. It would be a super failure to not even get one of them.

 

[Darkstone42]

With the Red Sox signing Sandoval and Ramirez, there's a chance they'll look to deal Napoli. Would it be worth it for the Bucs to talk to them, and what do you think it would take to get him?

 

[element1286]

With the Red Sox signing Sandoval and Ramirez, there's a chance they'll look to deal Napoli. Would it be worth it for the Bucs to talk to them, and what do you think it would take to get him?

It would make sense for sure, no idea what it would cost.

 

[Darkstone42]

It would make sense for sure, no idea what it would cost.

I think the Sox want Major League pitching, and that would be a hangup for us, since we need ours and still need to add more, but perhaps there could be a three-way deal with us, the Sox and the Phillies where we get Napoli, the Sox get Hamels, and the Phillies get prospects from each team or something. I think that would make sense for all three teams, and then we could pursue pitching in free agency with our lineup definitely ready for the season.

 

[thecrow124]

I think the Sox want Major League pitching, and that would be a hangup for us, since we need ours and still need to add more, but perhaps there could be a three-way deal with us, the Sox and the Phillies where we get Napoli, the Sox get Hamels, and the Phillies get prospects from each team or something. I think that would make sense for all three teams, and then we could pursue pitching in free agency with our lineup definitely ready for the season.

But I would rather have Hamels than Napoli, and I have very little desire at all to give up any type of prospects if the return is Mike Napoli. Nothing against Napoli, just not someone I would be targeting at this point in the offseason. Why not just go sign Mike Morris and keep all the prospects.

 

[steelparrot]

You all really think we are going to sign one of the big 3? I dont see it happening.

 

[Illinest]

You all really think we are going to sign one of the big 3? I dont see it happening.

Neither do I, which is a shame.

 

[thecrow124]

You all really think we are going to sign one of the big 3? I dont see it happening.

No I don't think we are, I just think we should be trying to. If we were willing to pay Russell Martin $15.3 million and Francisco Liriano $15.3 million, that is $30.6 million. We gave AJ $8.5 million, that leaves $22.1 million, and historically NH has constructed rosters with $7-10 million in wiggle room. There is no reason we can't add one of the big three and Michael Morris. We don't have a lot of holes to fill, but SP is a big one.