1996 Bulls and the 2016 GSW

[CitySushi]

Bogut is one of the best passing big men in the league. He's responsible for 90% of the dribble hand off plays the warriors make because of his ability to hand off and screen, or fake the hand off and hit a cutter going back door.

I argued on the Warriors board last year at length about the importance of Bogut's role in the offense, but this year there's been a much larger decrease in his role offensively. That's mainly to do with Draymond's role expanding. There are really only three other centers who could do Bogut's job or possibly exceed what he does for the Warriors and that's Tim Duncan, Marc Gasol and Joakim Noah.

 

[tlance]

and how are you going to make that rotation work?

Keep in mind, GS' best lineup had Green at the 5 along with curry and 3 wings.

Unless you plan to play Rodman less than 20 minutes a game in the Ezeli role, he ain't helping. By the way, good luck keeping Rodman focused for that.

 

[tlance]

Who suggested Rodman to replace Green? I said Rodman AND Dray.

SJ said that

 

[tlance]

Bogut is one of the best passing big men in the league. He's responsible for 90% of the dribble hand off plays the warriors make because of his ability to hand off and screen, or fake the hand off and hit a cutter going back door.

I argued on the Warriors board last year at length about the importance of Bogut's role in the offense, but this year there's been a much larger decrease in his role offensively. That's mainly to do with Draymond's role expanding. There are really only three other centers who could do Bogut's job or possibly exceed what he does for the Warriors and that's Tim Duncan, Marc Gasol and Joakim Noah.

I think I would put Pao on that list too, even though he is not quite as good defensively.

I agree 100% though.

 

[CitySushi]

I think I would put Pao on that list too, even though he is not quite as good defensively.

I agree 100% though.

Bogut's main role on this team first and foremost is to patrol the paint. I only listed the guys above because of their ability to defend at the highest level. Pau is much superior offensively but he's not defensively on the level of Bogut.

 

[tlance]

I think what some are missing is the very reason why the Warriors are in this conversation to begin with. The pieces they have fit unbelievably well together. You can't just replace a key component with a different kind of player and expect everything to work the same.

 

[tlance]

Bogut's main role on this team first and foremost is to patrol the paint. I only listed the guys above because of their ability to defend at the highest level. Pau is much superior offensively but he's not defensively on the level of Bogut.

Fair enough. And they need Bogut's D more than Pao's offense.

 

[LAD]

They don't need a dominating center. Bogut is absolutely perfect for them, and you are trying to replace him for a specialist with a very specific skill set. Bogut plays great post defense, rebounds well, is one of the best passing bigs in the league and he offers a huge size advantage over Rodman. As great as Rodman was defensively, Bogut is pretty damn good too, and the ideal fit for what they need. Rodman would not have been because he does not have as diverse a skill set.

The '96 Bulls are widely considered the greatest team ever, and they had Luc Longley at center. Bogut is a lot better than Longley. You don't need hall of famers at every position to have a great team. Sometimes, less is more.

Disagree. Bogut isn't great on defense. IMO Ezelie is the better center for this team & I wish he'd get more starts. I think people think Bogut is good because they play good TEAM ball & when that happens it kind of masks some of the kinks in the armour. I'm pretty sure that the Warriors give up the most points in the paint compared to the other top defensive teams in the league. That suggests to me that they don't have a great rim protector.

 

[tlance]

Disagree. Bogut isn't great on defense. IMO Ezelie is the better center for this team & I wish he'd get more starts. I think people think Bogut is good because they play good TEAM ball & when that happens it kind of masks some of the kinks in the armour. I'm pretty sure that the Warriors give up the most points in the paint compared to the other top defensive teams in the league. That suggests to me that they don't have a great rim protector.

Just stop now before you really make yourself look bad.

 

[CitySushi]

Disagree. Bogut isn't great on defense. IMO Ezelie is the better center for this team & I wish he'd get more starts. I think people think Bogut is good because they play good TEAM ball & when that happens it kind of masks some of the kinks in the armour. I'm pretty sure that the Warriors give up the most points in the paint compared to the other top defensive teams in the league. That suggests to me that they don't have a great rim protector.

Ummm. What?

As a fan of the Warriors, I can't believe you actually believe this.

 

[LAD]

Ummm. What?

As a fan of the Warriors, I can't believe you actually believe this.

I think if you think Bogut is GREAT then your expectation is low. I can name a few other bigs that are better on defense. Does he fit welll with GS? Yes. Does he do his job? Sure. But is he great? No. I am ok with agreeing to disagree. Yes it is my opinion that he's not GREAT.

 

[CitySushi]

I think if you think Bogut is GREAT then your expectation is low. I can name a few other bigs that are better on defense. Does he fit welll with GS? Yes. Does he do his job? Sure. But is he great? No. I am ok with agreeing to disagree. Yes it is my opinion that he's not GREAT.

Last year for individual defensive rankings according to Basketball Reference here were the top 5:

1) Kawhi Leonard
2) Andrew Bogut
3) Tim Duncan
4) Draymond Green
5) Rudy Gobert

Every advance metric has Bogut as an Elite defensive center. He's not flashy with his blocks, but he protects the paint as well as anyone in the NBA.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion, just wanted to throw this out there.

 

[LAD]

Last year for individual defensive rankings according to Basketball Reference here were the top 5:

1) Kawhi Leonard
2) Andrew Bogut
3) Tim Duncan
4) Draymond Green
5) Rudy Gobert

Every advance metric has Bogut as an Elite defensive center. He's not flashy with his blocks, but he protects the paint as well as anyone in the NBA.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion, just wanted to throw this out there.

What stats does that ranking take into consideration?

 

[CitySushi]

What stats does that ranking take into consideration?

"Just as Oliver's Offensive Rating represents points produced by the player per 100 possessions consumed, his Defensive Rating estimates how many points the player allowed per 100 possessions he individually faced while on the court.

The core of the Defensive Rating calculation is the concept of the individual Defensive Stop. Stops take into account the instances of a player ending an opposing possession that are tracked in the boxscore (blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds), in addition to an estimate for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks."

There's a whole huge formula for their calculations, but you can google it if you want.

 

[tlance]

What stats does that ranking take into consideration?

I think that is the problem. You are basing your analysis on simple stats.

Many players who rack up blocks and steals are not great overall defenders because they sell out for the stat and often wind up out of position. Bogut and Duncan are probably the two best players in the league at always being in the right spot and limiting opponents' scoring Chances.

By the way, the Warriors are second only to the Spurs in defensive efficiency this year.

 

[LAD]

I think that is the problem. You are basing your analysis on simple stats.

Many players who rack up blocks and steals are not great overall defenders because they sell out for the stat and often wind up out of position. Bogut and Duncan are probably the two best players in the league at always being in the right spot and limiting opponents' scoring Chances.

By the way, the Warriors are second only to the Spurs in defensive efficiency this year.

LOL wrong. I asked that question because I am aware that stats don't tell the whole picture.

Bogut is in foul trouble a lot it seems and from what I can see with my own two eyes it appears that Ezeli is better at the center position. He has better foot work, can anticipate the opponents moves under the rim & therefore can react quicker. Maybe it has to do with Ezeli being younger, I wouldn't doubt in the effort category. Maybe if Ezeli were the starting center he & Bogut trade rankings. Who knows.

But that is just part of the reason I say IMO Bogut isn't GREAT. Now I'm not saying he's garbage either. But he's definitely not GREAT.

 

[tlance]

LOL wrong. I asked that question because I am aware that stats don't tell the whole picture.

Bogut is in foul trouble a lot it seems and from what I can see with my own two eyes it appears that Ezeli is better at the center position. He has better foot work, can anticipate the opponents moves under the rim & therefore can react quicker. Maybe it has to do with Ezeli being younger, I wouldn't doubt in the effort category. Maybe if Ezeli were the starting center he & Bogut trade rankings. Who knows.

But that is just part of the reason I say IMO Bogut isn't GREAT. Now I'm not saying he's garbage either. But he's definitely not GREAT.

Metrics and the eye test from knowledgable basketball people would not back that statement up at all.

But it makes a lot more sense why you think Rodman playing out of position at the 5 would help.

 

[CitySushi]

LOL wrong. I asked that question because I am aware that stats don't tell the whole picture.

Bogut is in foul trouble a lot it seems and from what I can see with my own two eyes it appears that Ezeli is better at the center position. He has better foot work, can anticipate the opponents moves under the rim & therefore can react quicker. Maybe it has to do with Ezeli being younger, I wouldn't doubt in the effort category. Maybe if Ezeli were the starting center he & Bogut trade rankings. Who knows.

But that is just part of the reason I say IMO Bogut isn't GREAT. Now I'm not saying he's garbage either. But he's definitely not GREAT.

This is actually the opposite. Bogut has much better natural reactions. Ezeli is the much better physical product on the court, which is why without even looking, I'm sure his block rate is much higher than Bogut's.

Bogut's defense is predicated on positioning and knowing how the offense will react. Watch him when he plays. He's the quarterback on the defense, who calls out screens, calls out plays, and helps the front line navigate and what to expect. You can see he's constantly in position for help defense.

Ezeli's defense is much closer to DeAndre Jordan's than Bogut.

 

[LAD]

Metrics and the eye test from knowledgable basketball people would not back that statement up at all.

But it makes a lot more sense why you think Rodman playing out of position at the 5 would help.

So now you want to talk about things that make sense? Didn't you say in the same post that Dray is a better defender than Rodaman and then say Dray doesn't have enough accolades at this point to be better?

Just stop. If you don't agree with what I post that's fine, just say that and we can have a normal friendly debate. But don't try to act like I'm talking out of the side of my neck and you only say rational things.

 

[LAD]

This is actually the opposite. Bogut has much better natural reactions. Ezeli is the much better physical product on the court, which is why without even looking, I'm sure his block rate is much higher than Bogut's.

Bogut's defense is predicated on positioning and knowing how the offense will react. Watch him when he plays. He's the quarterback on the defense, who calls out screens, calls out plays, and helps the front line navigate and what to expect. You can see he's constantly in position for help defense.

Ezeli's defense is much closer to DeAndre Jordan's than Bogut.

Well I guess we just interpret what we're seeing differently. Because to me it appears Ezeli has better footwork and is in position-the right position- more often than not. And you're correct, Ezeli's averages on blocks is slightly higher per game...but not by much which says a lot since he's playing less minutes than Bogut. But this is primarily why I can't say Bogut is great.