1996 Bulls and the 2016 GSW

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Recording a forced missed or altered shot statistic would be difficult. There's a level of subjectivity there. I will conclude though, after having watched 30+ seasons of NBA basketball, that an altered shot or forced missed leads to more change of possessions than a blocked shot.

I concur.

 

[trojanfan12]

If he was that good ... he would have played in the NBA Finals. After Cleveland got up, 2-1 Bogut never got off the bench. He wasn't benched just because Cleveland went small ... Mozgov played at least 29 minutes in 5 out of the 6 games.

Uh, you're right, he wasn't kept out because the Cavs went small, he was kept out because GSW did. GSW went small to create advantages in speed and quickness at every spot. They weren't reacting to Cleveland, they were forcing Cleveland to react to them.

Looks like it worked.

 

[tlance]

Here is further proof that you can't analyze a player's defensive ability with simple stats.

These are 2 guards from the 2004/2005 season

Player A: 32 MPG 3.5 rebounds, .7 steals, and .5 blocks
Player B: 42.3 MPG, 4 rebounds, 2.4 steals, and .1 blocks

Both were in their primes at this point, which one was better?

Player A was 2 time DPOY runner up Bruce Bowen. Player B was Allen Iverson who was never known as a good defensive player. Blocks and Steals don't tell the story.

 

[LAD]

Here is further proof that you can't analyze a player's defensive ability with simple stats.

These are 2 guards from the 2004/2005 season

Player A: 32 MPG 3.5 rebounds, .7 steals, and .5 blocks
Player B: 42.3 MPG, 4 rebounds, 2.4 steals, and .1 blocks

Both were in their primes at this point, which one was better?

Player A was 2 time DPOY runner up Bruce Bowen. Player B was Allen Iverson who was never known as a good defensive player. Blocks and Steals don't tell the story.

Well in all fairness neither of those players were centers on their respective teams so not sure how that's relevant to the conversation we were having about Bogut who IS the center on his team.

 

[ChrisGar15]

Well in all fairness neither of those players were centers on their respective teams so not sure how that's relevant to the conversation we were having about Bogut who IS the center on his team.

Guys like Iverson (Chris Mullin was another one) gamble on defense with reaches & jumping into passing lanes. It increases steals -- but he was never a lock-down defender.

 

[tlance]

Well in all fairness neither of those players were centers on their respective teams so not sure how that's relevant to the conversation we were having about Bogut who IS the center on his team.

Just an example. But when I have more time later I will find a center comparison if you still doubt.

 

[tlance]

Guys like Iverson (Chris Mullin was another one) gamble on defense with reaches & jumping into passing lanes. It increases steals -- but he was never a lock-down defender.

Correct. Gives up too many easy shots when he doesn't get the steal.

 

[LAD]

Guys like Iverson (Chris Mullin was another one) gamble on defense with reaches & jumping into passing lanes. It increases steals -- but he was never a lock-down defender.

I think CP3 does a lot of the same & is often mistaken for a good man to man defender.

 

[LAD]

Just an example. But when I have more time later I will find a center comparison if you still doubt.

I think you're getting further and further away from my point. I will say it one last time.
I think Bogut does well with this team, maybe he's just the right fit because of all the other strengths on the court.

But, in order to put him in the GREAT category, he will need to do some things that back up that claim, such as lead the league in blocks, rebounds etc. as other centers have done in the past. Hell I might be able to get there if he could just AVERAGE double digit boards. If he's so good at being in position that should be easier for him. And there's more to just being in position- a great center is on point to block that altered shot or at the very least rebound that "forced" missed shot that was caused by him being in position.

 

[CitySushi]

I think you're getting further and further away from my point. I will say it one last time.
I think Bogut does well with this team, maybe he's just the right fit because of all the other strengths on the court.

But, in order to put him in the GREAT category, he will need to do some things that back up that claim, such as lead the league in blocks, rebounds etc. as other centers have done in the past. Hell I might be able to get there if he could just AVERAGE double digit boards. If he's so good at being in position that should be easier for him. And there's more to just being in position- a great center is on point to block that altered shot or at the very least rebound that "forced" missed shot that was caused by him being in position.

Draymond has very little statistical output (all things considered) for his position, yet he's considered a great defender. Same with Kawhi. Why are they able to hold up as great defenders, but Bogut can't be considered a great defender with less statistical output?

 

[ChrisGar15]

I think you're getting further and further away from my point. I will say it one last time.
I think Bogut does well with this team, maybe he's just the right fit because of all the other strengths on the court.

But, in order to put him in the GREAT category, he will need to do some things that back up that claim, such as lead the league in blocks, rebounds etc. as other centers have done in the past. Hell I might be able to get there if he could just AVERAGE double digit boards. If he's so good at being in position that should be easier for him. And there's more to just being in position- a great center is on point to block that altered shot or at the very least rebound that "forced" missed shot that was caused by him being in position.

I thought of CP3 also -- but I do think he is better than Iverson and didn't really want to lump them together.

I think Lebron's man-on-man D has gone down quite a bit in the last 2-3 years. He focuses on rebounds, steals, and giving help/blocks ... but he doesn't try to lock-down much and gets caught watching.

 

[LAD]

Draymond has very little statistical output (all things considered) for his position, yet he's considered a great defender. Same with Kawhi. Why are they able to hold up as great defenders, but Bogut can't be considered a great defender with less statistical output?

I think the difference is that Dray isn't a PF OR a Center (generally he's a SF), yet he's asked to guard those positions regularly while putting up just about the SAME stats as Bogut. His versatility is what makes him great imo. Also, Dray only has 4 years in the league compared to Bogut's 10.

At 7'0 Bogut has a 5" advantage over Dray yet in the playoffs they're averaging the same number of rebounds. Couple that with the fact that Dray is bringing the ball up court, setting screens & getting into shooting position while Bogut is able to concentrate on penetrators in the paint. I have to scratch my head at why they would be averaging the same number there. And the same thing applies to the number of blocks. Over their career playoffs Bogut (across all 9 seasons) only had 5 more blocks than Dray (across 2 seasons). I really have to question why my SF is putting up the same numbers as my C. I'm not sure I could ask many to agree that Bogut is a great center given this info.

So in other words, Dray is exceeding expectations while Bogut is just doing enough to get by.

 

[CitySushi]

I think the difference is that Dray isn't a PF OR a Center (generally he's a SF), yet he's asked to guard those positions regularly while putting up just about the SAME stats as Bogut. His versatility is what makes him great imo. Also, Dray only has 4 years in the league compared to Bogut's 10.

At 7'0 Bogut has a 5" advantage over Dray yet in the playoffs they're averaging the same number of rebounds. Couple that with the fact that Dray is bringing the ball up court, setting screens & getting into shooting position while Bogut is able to concentrate on penetrators in the paint. I have to scratch my head at why they would be averaging the same number there. And the same thing applies to the number of blocks. Over their career playoffs Bogut (across all 9 seasons) only had 5 more blocks than Dray (across 2 seasons). I really have to question why my SF is putting up the same numbers as my C. I'm not sure I could ask many to agree that Bogut is a great center given this info.

So in other words, Dray is exceeding expectations while Bogut is just doing enough to get by.

I think "Great Center" is not to be confused "Great Defensive Center".

I mean I get what you're saying, but you're incorporating other intangible aspects for Draymond, while ignoring any for Bogut. Draymond is a PF, but doesn't produce great PF numbers defensively. Bogut is a center and doesn't produce great numbers defensively either. You have to hold both to a similar standard.

If you're going to say Bogut is not great in your view from your eye test, that's completely reasonable. But you can't argue he's not great by using statistics, while ignoring statistics from another player. It's impossible to judge a player's defensive value based on statistics and what they "should" be producing. That would be like saying Rondo is a superior PG to Curry because he's averaging almost double the assists Curry is. Because after all a PG should average a high number of assists, based on positional value.

 

[tlance]

I think the difference is that Dray isn't a PF OR a Center (generally he's a SF), yet he's asked to guard those positions regularly while putting up just about the SAME stats as Bogut. His versatility is what makes him great imo. Also, Dray only has 4 years in the league compared to Bogut's 10.

At 7'0 Bogut has a 5" advantage over Dray yet in the playoffs they're averaging the same number of rebounds. Couple that with the fact that Dray is bringing the ball up court, setting screens & getting into shooting position while Bogut is able to concentrate on penetrators in the paint. I have to scratch my head at why they would be averaging the same number there. And the same thing applies to the number of blocks. Over their career playoffs Bogut (across all 9 seasons) only had 5 more blocks than Dray (across 2 seasons). I really have to question why my SF is putting up the same numbers as my C. I'm not sure I could ask many to agree that Bogut is a great center given this info.

So in other words, Dray is exceeding expectations while Bogut is just doing enough to get by.

The really hilarious thing about your rebounding rant is that Bogut is actually one of the best rebounders in the NBA. He does not have the raw stats of Draymond because Dray plays a lot more minutes.

Bogut is actually tied for 13th in the NBA in rebounds per 36 minutes with 13.0. Half of the players ranked ahead of him are bench guys like Boban, Thomas Robinson and Javale McGee who get even fewer minutes than Bogut.

For reference, Drummond only averages 3.1 rebounds per 36. Draymond Green is 64th with 10 rebounds per 36. A good number, but not elite.

 

[tlance]

Lol. That should read Drummind averages 3.1 more rebounds per 36 than Bogut.

 

[LAD]

I think "Great Center" is not to be confused "Great Defensive Center".

I mean I get what you're saying, but you're incorporating other intangible aspects for Draymond, while ignoring any for Bogut. Draymond is a PF, but doesn't produce great PF numbers defensively. Bogut is a center and doesn't produce great numbers defensively either. You have to hold both to a similar standard.

If you're going to say Bogut is not great in your view from your eye test, that's completely reasonable. But you can't argue he's not great by using statistics, while ignoring statistics from another player. It's impossible to judge a player's defensive value based on statistics and what they "should" be producing. That would be like saying Rondo is a superior PG to Curry because he's averaging almost double the assists Curry is. Because after all a PG should average a high number of assists, based on positional value.

Honestly, IMO Dray is not a PF, he's a SF listed as his normal position. I think because he's asked to slide over (and can play in that role successfully) his "normal" position is mistaken. How many PFs in the league are shorter than 6'8?

And I hear what you're saying in terms of their stats & comparing the two side by side. But again, for a SF Dray is performing exceptional. And I think that would be easy to see if we measured him up to other TOP SFs in the league-also taking into consideration he's leading the league in triple doubles. In fact I'll give you an example.

If you compare LBJ (listed as a SF, with the same amount of years in the league as Bogut) and Dray you will see that LBJ has a more considerable amount of blocks than Dray. Not only 5 like Bogut, and LBJ isn't his team's center.They also average the same number of rebounds & steals. Now if I'm not mistaken isn't LBJ considered to be a great defender/player in general?

Now what would happen if we measured Bogut up against other TOP centers in the league? I don't think he's going to stand out as an exceptional performer. I've already looked at his numbers compared to Shaq...and it ain't good.

 

[tlance]

LeBron is a good defensive player, but also an overrated one IMO.

I don't know why you keep saying Dray is an SF. In today's NBA, he is a PF. By the way, regardless of what Barkley was listed at, he was 6'5" and one of the best PFs of all time. Height is not everything.

 

[tlance]

And, some get defenders do get blocks and steals. All I am saying is that you should not measure them by blocks and steals alone.

 

[CitySushi]

Honestly, IMO Dray is not a PF, he's a SF listed as his normal position. I think because he's asked to slide over (and can play in that role successfully) his "normal" position is mistaken. How many PFs in the league are shorter than 6'8?

And I hear what you're saying in terms of their stats & comparing the two side by side. But again, for a SF Dray is performing exceptional. And I think that would be easy to see if we measured him up to other TOP SFs in the league-also taking into consideration he's leading the league in triple doubles. In fact I'll give you an example.

If you compare LBJ (listed as a SF, with the same amount of years in the league as Bogut) and Dray you will see that LBJ has a more considerable amount of blocks than Dray. Not only 5 like Bogut, and LBJ isn't his team's center.They also average the same number of rebounds & steals. Now if I'm not mistaken isn't LBJ considered to be a great defender/player in general?

Now what would happen if we measured Bogut up against other TOP centers in the league? I don't think he's going to stand out as an exceptional performer. I've already looked at his numbers compared to Shaq...and it ain't good.

Well there's your problem if you're comparing him to Shaq...

 

[wood20ks]

This guy knows basketball. That is all.

I read thru the first four pages of this thread, and you're right, City knows his shit......