1996 Bulls and the 2016 GSW

[tlance]

So now you want to talk about things that make sense? Didn't you say in the same post that Dray is a better defender than Rodaman and then say Dray doesn't have enough accolades at this point to be better?

Just stop. If you don't agree with what I post that's fine, just say that and we can have a normal friendly debate. But don't try to act like I'm talking out of the side of my neck and you only say rational things.

Stop twisting my words. All along I have said that Dray and Rodman were comparable defenders. You are basing your entire argument in career accolades, which by the way are subjective.

Just because Green has not played long enough to win a bunch of defensive accolades does not mean that Rodman was ever a better defender than Green is today. Green is great defensively, so was Rodman. That is all. I am being rational here, you are not, but I would very much like to be done with this conversation.

 

[LAD]

Stop twisting my words. All along I have said that Dray and Rodman were comparable defenders. You are basing your entire argument in career accolades, which by the way are subjective.

Just because Green has not played long enough to win a bunch of defensive accolades does not mean that Rodman was ever a better defender than Green is today. Green is great defensively, so was Rodman. That is all. I am being rational here, you are not, but I would very much like to be done with this conversation.

If we can't use their accolades and awards to judge their performance then what are they for? Bragging rights??
LOL whatever man.

 

[LAD]

This is actually the opposite. Bogut has much better natural reactions. Ezeli is the much better physical product on the court, which is why without even looking, I'm sure his block rate is much higher than Bogut's.

Bogut's defense is predicated on positioning and knowing how the offense will react. Watch him when he plays. He's the quarterback on the defense, who calls out screens, calls out plays, and helps the front line navigate and what to expect. You can see he's constantly in position for help defense.

Ezeli's defense is much closer to DeAndre Jordan's than Bogut.

Also, I think him causing the opponents to change their shot has a lot to do with his size, rather than his ability to actually block the shot. He's averaging less than 2 blocks a game, and less than 10 boards a game-defensive & offensive combined. Again nothing there to make me say he's great.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

These are the numbers.

Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

If it can be said that Green is clearly the better offensive player, then it can also be said that the Worm was clearly the better defensive player.

 

[CitySushi]

Also, I think him causing the opponents to change their shot has a lot to do with his size, rather than his ability to actually block the shot. He's averaging less than 2 blocks a game, and less than 10 boards a game-defensive & offensive combined. Again nothing there to make me say he's great.

Shot alteration is a huge deal in defense. Shot contesting and forced misses are stats that are generally not available. It's unfortunate that the only metrics most people are able to use to define defensive production are blocks, steals and rebounds.

Who's the superior defensive player here:

Player A: 26 minutes per game, 7.5 rebounds per game, 1.3 blocks, 0.9 steals per game
Player B: 28 minutes per game, 11.2 rebounds per game, 3.9 blocks, 0.6 steals per game
Player C: 24 minutes per game, 7.8 rebounds per game, 1.0 blocks, 0.8 steals per game

 

[ChrisGar15]

These are the numbers.

Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

If it can be said that Green is clearly the better offensive player, then it can also be said that the Worm was clearly the better defensive player.

I didn't remember it -- but I went back and checked -- and definitely Rodman played Center at some key times -- like vs. Shaq in 1996-1998 timeframe. Chicago played more small ball than I remembered -- with Kukoc & Rodman being the bigs. What I remember is they'd put Rodman on a big who had it going and Rodman would just annoy him ... often getting under his skin.

Both Rodman & Green are 6-7 ... I'm not sure Green could have guarded someone like Shaq nearly as well as Rodman did. Also, Rodman was first team All NBA Def. team 7 times. (POY twice.) Green has done it once so far. Dennis also led the NBA in Rebounding 7 straight years.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Shot alteration is a huge deal in defense. Shot contesting and forced misses are stats that are generally not available. It's unfortunate that the only metrics most people are able to use to define defensive production are blocks, steals and rebounds.

Who's the superior defensive player here:

Player A: 26 minutes per game, 7.5 rebounds per game, 1.3 blocks, 0.9 steals per game
Player B: 28 minutes per game, 11.2 rebounds per game, 3.9 blocks, 0.6 steals per game
Player C: 24 minutes per game, 7.8 rebounds per game, 1.0 blocks, 0.8 steals per game

Well, one way to look at this is that steals and defensive rebounds change the possession of the ball. In the case of offensive rebounds it maintains possession of the ball. The point of possessing the ball is to score. So let's call a change of possession a potential two points and an offensive rebound a potential two points.

Player A 16.8 potential points
Player B 23.6 potential points
Player C 17.2 potential points

Blocks do not always mean a change of possession, so we cannot quantify it here in the same way.

 

[CitySushi]

Well, one way to look at this is that steals and defensive rebounds change the possession of the ball. In the case of offensive rebounds it maintains possession of the ball. The point of possessing the ball is to score. So let's call a change of possession a potential two points and an offensive rebound a potential two points.

Player A 16.8 potential points
Player B 23.6 potential points
Player C 17.2 potential points

Blocks do not always mean a change of possession, so we cannot quantify it here in the same way.

Exactly my point. Stops should include forced misses and alterations. Change of possession is the biggest factor in determining someone's true defensive ability. It's hard to quantify someone's defensive abilities purely based on the "normal" statistical model. In order to judge a player by their actual defensive capabilities, it has to include a wider range of data.

 

[LAD]

I didn't remember it -- but I went back and checked -- and definitely Rodman played Center at some key times -- like vs. Shaq in 1996-1998 timeframe. Chicago played more small ball than I remembered -- with Kukoc & Rodman being the bigs. What I remember is they'd put Rodman on a big who had it going and Rodman would just annoy him ... often getting under his skin.

Both Rodman & Green are 6-7 ... I'm not sure Green could have guarded someone like Shaq nearly as well as Rodman did. Also, Rodman was first team All NBA Def. team 7 times. (POY twice.) Green has done it once so far. Dennis also led the NBA in Rebounding 7 straight years.

I made all those same points and was told that even though players have accolades they may not necessarily have been deserved. I thought having a resume full of accolades would help dispel that notion, but go figure.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Exactly my point. Stops should include forced misses and alterations. Change of possession is the biggest factor in determining someone's true defensive ability. It's hard to quantify someone's defensive abilities purely based on the "normal" statistical model. In order to judge a player by their actual defensive capabilities, it has to include a wider range of data.

You cannot attribute a miss to the defensive player. And actually the metric I mentioned is the most sound way to compare. Your "forced miss" does not always change possession. "Alterations" don't always end in a "forced miss". But rebounds and steals, always, every single time, lead to potential points.

 

[LAD]

Exactly my point. Stops should include forced misses and alterations. Change of possession is the biggest factor in determining someone's true defensive ability. It's hard to quantify someone's defensive abilities purely based on the "normal" statistical model. In order to judge a player by their actual defensive capabilities, it has to include a wider range of data.

I hear what you're saying, but again who wouldn't "change their shot" when they face a 7 footer? But, for those that are not deterred by his size there is usually success because he's averaging less than 2 blocks a game. I wonder what that would look like if we include the number of those possessions when he's called for a foul.

My point is there are so many factoring things that could sway someone's opinion. But, when you tell me he's a GREAT center I am looking for something tangible to back that up. A prime example of that would be the Spurs being the best defensive team in the league. A stat that backs up that claim is that they have held their opponents (not including that last game when they played GS) to under 90 points. Those two things together make sense and don't contradict each other.

 

[lakersrule]

Recording a forced missed or altered shot statistic would be difficult. There's a level of subjectivity there. I will conclude though, after having watched 30+ seasons of NBA basketball, that an altered shot or forced missed leads to more change of possessions than a blocked shot.

 

[tlance]

These are the numbers.

Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

If it can be said that Green is clearly the better offensive player, then it can also be said that the Worm was clearly the better defensive player.

This is a start, but does not really provide the necessary info to analyze these two.

Draymond's defensive efficiency stats from this season, should be measured against Rodman's stats from '96 or any other year. Draymond's career stats will look underwhelming because he was not the same player 2 years ago that he is today.

What I said 5 pages ago is that it is not fair to conclude Rodman was a better defender based on his career accolades. This thread compares the '96 Bulls to the '16 Warriors. Draymond is arguably the best defender in the NBA today, whether he wins the award or not. Just because Rodman won the DPOY award twice in the early 90s, does not make the '96 version of Rodman a better defender than 2016 Green.

By the way, I am not sure I ever saw another defender do a better job on Shaq than Rodman did. He got in under Shaq and gave him zero space to operate. My praise of Green is in no way a knock on Rodman. Green right now, is a better overall player than Rodman was in '96.

If the discussion is about who was the better career defender, then comparing accolades would be a good start. That is not a reasonable approach here, however.

 

[trojanfan12]

Bogut's defense is predicated on positioning and knowing how the offense will react.

I think this is why folks can get the idea that Bogut isn't that good defensively. When most folks think of centers who are good to great defenders they think mainly of blocked/altered shots (guys like DeAndre Jordan, Whiteside, etc.). Bogut plays defense more like Timmy and Marc Gasol where it's about moving their feet, being in proper position and moving guys off of their favored spots on the floor.

 

[ChrisGar15]

I think this is why folks can get the idea that Bogut isn't that good defensively. When most folks think of centers who are good to great defenders they think mainly of blocked/altered shots (guys like DeAndre Jordan, Whiteside, etc.). Bogut plays defense more like Timmy and Marc Gasol where it's about moving their feet, being in proper position and moving guys off of their favored spots on the floor.

If he was that good ... he would have played in the NBA Finals. After Cleveland got up, 2-1 Bogut never got off the bench. He wasn't benched just because Cleveland went small ... Mozgov played at least 29 minutes in 5 out of the 6 games.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

This is a start, but does not really provide the necessary info to analyze these two.

Draymond's defensive efficiency stats from this season, should be measured against Rodman's stats from '96 or any other year. Draymond's career stats will look underwhelming because he was not the same player 2 years ago that he is today.

What I said 5 pages ago is that it is not fair to conclude Rodman was a better defender based on his career accolades. This thread compares the '96 Bulls to the '16 Warriors. Draymond is arguably the best defender in the NBA today, whether he wins the award or not. Just because Rodman won the DPOY award twice in the early 90s, does not make the '96 version of Rodman a better defender than 2016 Green.

By the way, I am not sure I ever saw another defender do a better job on Shaq than Rodman did. He got in under Shaq and gave him zero space to operate. My praise of Green is in no way a knock on Rodman. Green right now, is a better overall player than Rodman was in '96.

If the discussion is about who was the better career defender, then comparing accolades would be a good start. That is not a reasonable approach here, however.

Fair enough. Let me do some digging.

 

[LAD]

If he was that good ... he would have played in the NBA Finals. After Cleveland got up, 2-1 Bogut never got off the bench. He wasn't benched just because Cleveland went small ... Mozgov played at least 29 minutes in 5 out of the 6 games.

Pretty much what I said. Those players that are not deterred by his size will do well with scoring regardless of where he's "positioned" on the floor.

 

[CitySushi]

If he was that good ... he would have played in the NBA Finals. After Cleveland got up, 2-1 Bogut never got off the bench. He wasn't benched just because Cleveland went small ... Mozgov played at least 29 minutes in 5 out of the 6 games.

If you think Bogut not playing because he isn't good then you're not looking at the big picture. It wasn't about Bogut not being effective, it was Golden State trying to create an advantage by going small. When they replaced Bogut in the lineup with Iguodala, it created mismatches on the offense, while not losing much on the defensive end. Mozgof killed them in game 4, but guess who ended up winning the game? This got into the Cavs head and they took a guy who killed the Warriors in game 4 basically off the court entirely the next game.

Also the Warriors don't win the series against the Grizzlies if they don't have Bogut there to guard Gasol and Randolph. That's a fact.

 

[tlance]

Cleveland had like 7 healthy players last year, and 2 were big. When Bogut was in, Cleveland could play their big lineup because Mozgov had someone he could guard. When Bogut was out, Cleveland had no Chance to match up with GS' small lineup, because their bigs couldn't matchup with the Warriors' guards.

Benching Bogut had nothing to do with Bogut's ability and everything to do with the matchup advantage the small lineup created for Golden state.

 

[LAD]

Also the Warriors don't win the series against the Grizzlies if they don't have Bogut there to guard Gasol and Randolph. That's a fact.

I don't agree. If I look at their stats from that series they were averaging 19 & 17 ppg. Gaslo averaged 11 boards and Randolph averaged just over 8. I don't think GS won because Bogut was beasting on defense.

Also, Gasol played 37 minutes a game & Randolph played 34. That would suggest they were out there at the same time most of the time so I would have to conclude Bogut wasn't guarding them both at the same time.

Like I said, I'm not saying that Bogut is terrible on defense. But I also am not going to say he's great. I think those that say he's great are just inflating what he does a little bit. Especially when I look at his numbers in Mil and they're pretty much exactly the same.