1996 Bulls and the 2016 GSW

[CitySushi]

If Rodman was on Golden St you wouldn't need more than 3 options outside anyway. He'd own the defensive boards and it would be off to the races. He would set screens and get plenty of offensive rebounds too.

A great defensive player isn't going to hurt you at all. He's going to create more offense by getting stops and boards.

That's why they say defense creates offense. That's why the Warriors are good. Sure they can score, but they can get stops and go on runs.

Rodman can't do all the things Draymond does for this Warriors teams. You're comparing apples and oranges. Likewise, Draymond would not be nearly as useful to the Bulls team as Rodman was.

As you pointed out Rodman wasn't asked to do anything on the offense end. What makes Draymond so important to this team is all that he does on offense, in addition to his defense.

Look at Draymond's rebound totals and you'll see exactly why Rodman's rebounding totals wouldn't equate to better production.

 

[LAD]

It really all stems from development and youth leagues and AAU ball. Big men aren't developing their skills around the hoop. They're being more encouraged to work on ball skills including handling and shooting. It really is a travesty that big men are dying breed.

One of the biggest things you'll hear about bigs in the upcoming draft is if they have a nice outside touch or if they can hit a mid-range shot. You'll hear people rave about big men if they can hit a three.

Guys like Dwight and DeAndre have gotten away their entire careers so far just by being physical specimens. They haven't done a thing to improve their actual game.

Which is another reason, I'm sure, that Shaq is mad every time Howard is compared to him or named the "best big man".

 

[SJ76]

It really all stems from development and youth leagues and AAU ball. Big men aren't developing their skills around the hoop. They're being more encouraged to work on ball skills including handling and shooting. It really is a travesty that big men are dying breed.

One of the biggest things you'll hear about bigs in the upcoming draft is if they have a nice outside touch or if they can hit a mid-range shot. You'll hear people rave about big men if they can hit a three.

Guys like Dwight and DeAndre have gotten away their entire careers so far just by being physical specimens. They haven't done a thing to improve their actual game.

Should we blame Europe? Pau Gasol, Tony Kukoc, Dirk.. Those guys can shoot. Pau has some moves. But the majority of the big men are not like the Centers back in the day. Hell even Shaq developed a post game.

It is small ball for sure.

 

[SJ76]

Rodman can't do all the things Draymond does for this Warriors teams. You're comparing apples and oranges. Likewise, Draymond would not be nearly as useful to the Bulls team as Rodman was.

As you pointed out Rodman wasn't asked to do anything on the offense end. What makes Draymond so important to this team is all that he does on offense, in addition to his defense.

Look at Draymond's rebound totals and you'll see exactly why Rodman's rebounding totals wouldn't equate to better production.

I believe Rodman still has the record in a Finals game with 11 offensive boards? He doesn't have Draymond's mid-range game or range, but Rodman could put it back from 5 feet or and in.

Draymond definitely gives GS another option outside. But for goodness sake, how many do you need? Go to the paint!!

 

[CitySushi]

I believe Rodman still has the record in a Finals game with 11 offensive boards? He doesn't have Draymond's mid-range game or range, but Rodman could put it back from 5 feet or and in.

Draymond definitely gives GS another option outside. But for goodness sake, how many do you need? Go to the paint!!

Yeah, but again Rodman's ability to get the offense boards, stem from him being down in the block and making himself available. The way the Warriors use Draymond to space the floor is crucial to the success of the team. The offense isn't going to work with three out and two guys (Bogut and Rodman) who can't hit a shot outside of 5 feet.

No one in the NBA can replicate what Draymond does for this team. In fact, I'm trying really hard to think of a guy more suited to the position than Draymond and I really can't think of it. Of course if the team had X in stead of Draymond, the outlook of the team would be different. But just swapping someone out and comparing it straight up, there's no one who allowed the flexibility of the team like he does.

 

[CitySushi]

Should we blame Europe? Pau Gasol, Tony Kukoc, Dirk.. Those guys can shoot. Pau has some moves. But the majority of the big men are not like the Centers back in the day. Hell even Shaq developed a post game.

It is small ball for sure.

I think blaming Europe is a cop out.

I think it's more the natural evolution of the game. Players now a days have becomes very highly skilled that versatility is valued. Teams now a days are more enamored with the Jack of All Trades rather than master of 1. It really has to do more with the sophistication of offenses now.

 

[LAD]

Yeah, but again Rodman's ability to get the offense boards, stem from him being down in the block and making himself available. The way the Warriors use Draymond to space the floor is crucial to the success of the team. The offense isn't going to work with three out and two guys (Bogut and Rodman) who can't hit a shot outside of 5 feet.

No one in the NBA can replicate what Draymond does for this team. In fact, I'm trying really hard to think of a guy more suited to the position than Draymond and I really can't think of it. Of course if the team had X in stead of Draymond, the outlook of the team would be different. But just swapping someone out and comparing it straight up, there's no one who allowed the flexibility of the team like he does.

I agree, and my point is if it were Rodman (or a player of his caliber) and Green together you wouldn't need a "Bogut".

 

[tlance]

If Rodman was on Golden St you wouldn't need more than 3 options outside anyway. He'd own the defensive boards and it would be off to the races. He would set screens and get plenty of offensive rebounds too.

A great defensive player isn't going to hurt you at all. He's going to create more offense by getting stops and boards.

That's why they say defense creates offense. That's why the Warriors are good. Sure they can score, but they can get stops and go on runs.

Totally and completely false.

Their offense would be MUCH easier to guard. They have the best offense in the modern NBA because they have two great shooters, two great playmakers and nobody you can help off of. Put a player like Rodman in that offense and the entire dynamic changes, and not for the better.

I agree that Rodman fit the Bulls to perfection, but that does not mean he would fit other teams. Look at what happened in San Antonio and Dallas. The Bulls had the perfect situation to maximize Rodman's talents and perhaps the only coach who was capable of utilizing Rodman without allowing all the antics to be a distraction.

Rodman's career in Detroit cannot and should not be considered here. He was a completely different person at that point in his career.

 

[LAD]

I think blaming Europe is a cop out.

I think it's more the natural evolution of the game. Players now a days have becomes very highly skilled that versatility is valued. Teams now a days are more enamored with the Jack of All Trades rather than master of 1. It really has to do more with the sophistication of offenses now.

That & kids of all ages watching & being mesmerized by shooters like Steph & Klay I'm sure have something to do with it as well.

 

[tlance]

I agree, and my point is if it were Rodman (or a player of his caliber) and Green together you wouldn't need a "Bogut".

This is not necessarily true either.

Bogut is a better passer and Rodman, while he could guard centers, was not nearly as good as he was guarding PFs. I think a Rodman/Draymond front court would have a tough time against players like Duncan and Gasol.

 

[LAD]

Totally and completely false.

Their offense would be MUCH easier to guard. They have the best offense in the modern NBA because they have two great shooters, two great playmakers and nobody you can help off of. Put a player like Rodman in that offense and the entire dynamic changes, and not for the better.

I agree that Rodman fit the Bulls to perfection, but that does not mean he would fit other teams. Look at what happened in San Antonio and Dallas. The Bulls had the perfect situation to maximize Rodman's talents and perhaps the only coach who was capable of utilizing Rodman without allowing all the antics to be a distraction.

Rodman's career in Detroit cannot and should not be considered here. He was a completely different person at that point in his career.

Maybe he was a different player under PJ because there were less rebounds to shag & so it allowed for him to contribute in other ways? I mean, when MJ was being doubled/tripled I'm sure Rodman would've been one of those open guys under the rim a time or two?

 

[tlance]

Yeah, but again Rodman's ability to get the offense boards, stem from him being down in the block and making himself available. The way the Warriors use Draymond to space the floor is crucial to the success of the team. The offense isn't going to work with three out and two guys (Bogut and Rodman) who can't hit a shot outside of 5 feet.

No one in the NBA can replicate what Draymond does for this team. In fact, I'm trying really hard to think of a guy more suited to the position than Draymond and I really can't think of it. Of course if the team had X in stead of Draymond, the outlook of the team would be different. But just swapping someone out and comparing it straight up, there's no one who allowed the flexibility of the team like he does.

Bingo!

 

[ChrisGar15]

It really all stems from development and youth leagues and AAU ball. Big men aren't developing their skills around the hoop. They're being more encouraged to work on ball skills including handling and shooting. It really is a travesty that big men are dying breed.

....

Guys like Dwight and DeAndre have gotten away their entire careers so far just by being physical specimens. They haven't done a thing to improve their actual game.

An interesting thing I heard recently both from Porzingis & Ben Simmons is that during middle school & high school their coaches had them playing point guard to develop those skills.

Also -- I think you are wrong about Jordan. His games has improved tremendously compared to his first couple of years. He has increased his scoring all 8 of his years in the NBA.

 

[LAD]

This is not necessarily true either.

Bogut is a better passer and Rodman, while he could guard centers, was not nearly as good as he was guarding PFs. I think a Rodman/Draymond front court would have a tough time against players like Duncan and Gasol.

You just continue to throw stuff in there that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. What does Bogut being a good passer have to do with defense? And BTW, Green is also a good passer, better than Bogut.

My point is, both are regarded as some of the best defenders/rebounders (whichever you want to use) and so regardless of what you think I am still going to say they would've been hell down low.

 

[tlance]

Maybe he was a different player under PJ because there were less rebounds to shag & so it allowed for him to contribute in other ways? I mean, when MJ was being doubled/tripled I'm sure Rodman would've been one of those open guys under the rim a time or two?

Sometimes, but you can't ever totally leave Rodman either. If you do, he gets rebounding position too easily. I am not saying that an opposing defense does not have to account for Rodman, but they would be better able to guard the 3 point line because more bodies in the paint mean there are fewer cutting lanes.

 

[LAD]

Sometimes, but you can't ever totally leave Rodman either. If you do, he gets rebounding position too easily. I am not saying that an opposing defense does not have to account for Rodman, but they would be better able to guard the 3 point line because more bodies in the paint mean there are fewer cutting lanes.

More bodies in the paint? It would typically only be Rodman in the paint just like it is only Bogut or Ezeli in the paint now.
If they had a player like Rodman it wouldn't change what Dray does.

 

[tlance]

You just continue to throw stuff in there that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. What does Bogut being a good passer have to do with defense? And BTW, Green is also a good passer, better than Bogut.

My point is, both are regarded as some of the best defenders/rebounders (whichever you want to use) and so regardless of what you think I am still going to say they would've been hell down low.

This entire conversation started because you said the Warriors need somebody like Rodman.

I say Rodman does not help them, and might even hurt.

If you play Rodman at the 5, then it is either Rodman or Bogut. That is why comparing Rodman to Bogut is 100% relevant here.

 

[tlance]

Green gets love as a great defender, but he's always going to be at a disadvantage because of a few things:

1) He's a PF and considered a big.
2) He's undersized
3) His perimeter defense is not appreciated.
4) Bigs don't usually get consideration for shutting an opponent down. Mostly applys to wings.

When you have guys like DeAndre Jordan getting DPOY votes over Green, it shows that there is a stigma that comes along with being a big. If you have great block numbers and rebound numbers, you're perceived to be a great defender, when in actuality the two stats don't really do justice.

Green outperforms most bigs in almost every advance metric aspect with his defense, but his rebounding and blocks will never wow you. He's considered a big, so he's judged mostly on face value from those who don't watch him game in and game out.

It's easier to see in the stat line and say "Kawhi Leonard held x to only 5 of 13 shooting". Or DeAndre Jordan had 18 rebounds and 5 blocks. But what you don't see is Draymond diverting the PG away from the hoop on a pick and roll to prevent a score. Or you don't see his on ball defense to prevent a guy he's giving 6" inches in height to push him away from the hoop.

The other game when the Warriors played the Spurs, all you read was LA disappeared. Did anyone cite why he disappeared? Nope.

This is part of my point too.

All too often, posters point to accolades and awards as if they are always given to the most deserving player. Draymond is the best defensive player in the NBA, whether he wins the award or not.

 

[LAD]

This entire conversation started because you said the Warriors need somebody like Rodman.

I say Rodman does not help them, and might even hurt.

If you play Rodman at the 5, then it is either Rodman or Bogut. That is why comparing Rodman to Bogut is 100% relevant here.

Hahaha no it isn't relevant when we've already agreed that Rodman would be used for DEFENSE & REBOUNDING. Every other guy out there can pass efficiently if you're saying that's where Rodman would hurt them. Furthermore, Dray & Rodman could switch between 4/5 based on the need; something both have done throughout their careers.
I think I might be able to agree with your point if the Warriors had a center that was a beast on defense and a monster at blocked shots. Since they don't really have that (Ezeli is good & imo better than Bogut most nights) then I'm just not able to say having a Rodman type player would hurt them rather than help them.

But, we'lll never know because there really isn't another player like him. Maybe Drummond in detroit if he continues to do what he's done so far this season.

 

[LAD]

This is part of my point too.

All too often, posters point to accolades and awards as if they are always given to the most deserving player. Draymond is the best defensive player in the NBA, whether he wins the award or not.

So are you saying that Rodman didn't deserve his accolades? And, I've agred that I think Dray deserves to be DPOY, but that doesn't mean he's better than Rodman yet. When he's made the NBA all defensive team multiple times then maybe it might be a better time to compare them.

It's the same argument others have made tween LbJ & Steph. LBJ has been the best player over multiple years whereas Steph just started to resemble that in the last season and a half.