Game Thread: 10.14 Duck the Fodgers Game 5

[calsnowskier]

The Doggies pitching was just terriffic. We scored next to nothing in a five a set. But we blanked them twice and only 2 runs yesterday. Pretty damn good. But ... now that it's all over and you get to step away from the emotions ... you see things a little differently.
The doggies have been usoing some fashion of the wholestaff approach for almost the entire season. Yesterday was no different. Urais didn't enter until the 3rd and he left in the sometime around the 7th. Bold move by Roberts but they have been doing things similar to this for awhile now.

Made me wonder ... just ballparking now that it's over .... what if we had started Doval (or anyone else for that matter) and then turned it over to Webb in the 3rd. A 7 inning run brings him through 9. Don't think it changes anything ... but maybe it changes the dynamic of the game. Wewbb couldn't be any better than he was ... but the feel of the game becomes different ... or at least it seems that way to me ..

But ... this was still one of the most enjoyable seasons for me as a fan .... to see a team that was expected to finish around .00 (if lucky) pull out the BRIB .... just so much more than I ever could have expected ...

Urias was gassed when he was taken out. The Giants actually did a very good job of working his pitch count. I don’t think the plan was for him to only go 3+. And Webb went 7 with 1 ER. There is no second guessing that. That is a perfect outing. The bully only had to pitch 3 IP (in regulation), and they did that with only giving up 1 run. Not perfect, but effective. The only second guessing I would apply to how the pitching was handled was bringing Gas in to clean up the 9th, but that ended up working, so I can’t complain in hindsight. Doval just had a wild hair up his ass. It happens. But he was the right guy to go to in that situation.

Not having Belt hurt, obviously, but the doggies were without Muncy, so it is hard to get too upset about that trade off. The problem, as I see it, is that the deep roster strategy just doesn’t work in the playoffs. The deep roster strategy works when you have bad teams and 5th starters and relievers that are really the #29 guy on the roster out into games. You don’t get any of that in the playoffs. You are only facing #1s, #2s, #3s and back end of the bully arms. They can handle the specialists that the deep roster strategy puts forward.

And this isn’t my MMQBing. I have been worried about this and voicing it for much of the season.

 

[LHG]

Urias was gassed when he was taken out. The Giants actually did a very good job of working his pitch count. I don’t think the plan was for him to only go 3+. And Webb went 7 with 1 ER. There is no second guessing that. That is a perfect outing. The bully only had to pitch 3 IP (in regulation), and they did that with only giving up 1 run. Not perfect, but effective. The only second guessing I would apply to how the pitching was handled was bringing Gas in to clean up the 9th, but that ended up working, so I can’t complain in hindsight. Doval just had a wild hair up his ass. It happens. But he was the right guy to go to in that situation.

Not having Belt hurt, obviously, but the doggies were without Muncy, so it is hard to get too upset about that trade off. The problem, as I see it, is that the deep roster strategy just doesn’t work in the playoffs. The deep roster strategy works when you have bad teams and 5th starters and relievers that are really the #29 guy on the roster out into games. You don’t get any of that in the playoffs. You are only facing #1s, #2s, #3s and back end of the bully arms. They can handle the specialists that the deep roster strategy puts forward.

And this isn’t my MMQBing. I have been worried about this and voicing it for much of the season.

My one counterpoint to that is that the deep roster strategy was lifted straight out of the Dodgers' playbook and is what the Dodgers still employ. They just have made the top of the deep roster a bit better than the Giants'. That was seen in games 2 & 4. Essentially, our starting depth was not as deep as theirs (which is something akin to what @msgkings322 has been saying for awhile) and that, in my opinion, is what made the difference. Our best starting pitching kept their bats quiet. Their best starting pitching kept our bats quiet. They just had more of the best than we did.

 

[SF11704]

While I understand your points about a deep roster I also don't believe that it hurts in a short playoff type format. It is the ideal structure for a 162 game season. You will grind out quite a few wins with it. We had 107. But in a playoff mode all these teams are very good and they all don't have deep rosters. But they all have a terrific core rosters.. its this core you will see in the playoffs.

Some of these cores are better than us. The ones that are noticeable are the ones that have pitching as the core strength. We were like that in 10-12 and 14 to some extent.

Can't complain about anything in this 5 game set. Their pitching just shut down our hitting.
Our pitching was stellar for the most part. Just not as rounded as the doggies or quite as deep.

 

[LHG]

While I did think, going into this series, that the Dodgers' pitching was better than the Giants, I didn't think it was as big a difference as some others. I figured that, in a 5 game set, it would be, essentially, a coin toss to determine the winner. And, the way I see it, it was. Put it into context - One of the worst (if not the worst) regular season hitters drove in the winning run in the deciding game for the Dodgers. We were that close to winning the toss but it landed tails when we were looking for heads.
Yeah, the Dodgers have the better pitching staff but ours kept us so close that a bounce different and one less hit batsman, and it could have been the Dodgers going home.

 

[msgkings322]

While I did think, going into this series, that the Dodgers' pitching was better than the Giants, I didn't think it was as big a difference as some others. I figured that, in a 5 game set, it would be, essentially, a coin toss to determine the winner. And, the way I see it, it was. Put it into context - One of the worst (if not the worst) regular season hitters drove in the winning run in the deciding game for the Dodgers. We were that close to winning the toss but it landed tails when we were looking for heads.
Yeah, the Dodgers have the better pitching staff but ours kept us so close that a bounce different and one less hit batsman, and it could have been the Dodgers going home.

Yep. Coin flip series, coin flip final game. Came up tails. Including the playoffs the teams were 12-12 head to head

 

[Robotech]

While I did think, going into this series, that the Dodgers' pitching was better than the Giants, I didn't think it was as big a difference as some others. I figured that, in a 5 game set, it would be, essentially, a coin toss to determine the winner. And, the way I see it, it was. Put it into context - One of the worst (if not the worst) regular season hitters drove in the winning run in the deciding game for the Dodgers. We were that close to winning the toss but it landed tails when we were looking for heads.
Yeah, the Dodgers have the better pitching staff but ours kept us so close that a bounce different and one less hit batsman, and it could have been the Dodgers going home.

Hitting Justin Turner was the Giants undoing in that inning. He came around to score the winning run, but maybe that HBP made Posey not trust Doval's fastball. Bellinger has had trouble with high velocity all year, so going with all sliders in that at bat makes you wonder if the result would've been different if Doval threw even one fastball.

 

[calsnowskier]

My one counterpoint to that is that the deep roster strategy was lifted straight out of the Dodgers' playbook and is what the Dodgers still employ. They just have made the top of the deep roster a bit better than the Giants'. That was seen in games 2 & 4. Essentially, our starting depth was not as deep as theirs (which is something akin to what @msgkings322 has been saying for awhile) and that, in my opinion, is what made the difference. Our best starting pitching kept their bats quiet. Their best starting pitching kept our bats quiet. They just had more of the best than we did.

I wasn’t intending to say that a shallow roster is better than a deep roster. Of course a deep roster is better. But as 11704 said, they have a traditional top-heavy roster, supplemented with a very deep bench. We only had the deep bench (built brilliantly to work perfectly as a TEAM and with maximized specialization). Our top was bare.

Posey had a very good series. KB had a very good series. Craw paid his fair with his glove, but he left the house without his bat. Longo had 1 BIG hit, but couldn’t muster a whimper outside of that. La Stella was good, but he has no legs (I seriously question if he will play even 1 game in ‘22).

 

[LHG]

Hitting Justin Turner was the Giants undoing in that inning. He came around to score the winning run, but maybe that HBP made Posey not trust Doval's fastball. Bellinger has had trouble with high velocity all year, so going with all sliders in that at bat makes you wonder if the result would've been different if Doval threw even one fastball.

I was watching that AB on MLB GameDay, noticing all the blue on the top of the strike zone and seeing all of Doval's pitches to Bellinger down in the zone, closer to the red. I thought, "why are they not throwing something up, like a fastball around shoulder level"? But then I thought, "he's 0-3 tonight, so they must know what they are doing in this pitch sequence". I was wrong.

 

[LHG]

I wasn’t intending to say that a shallow roster is better than a deep roster. Of course a deep roster is better. But as 11704 said, they have a traditional top-heavy roster, supplemented with a very deep bench. We only had the deep bench (built brilliantly to work perfectly as a TEAM and with maximized specialization). Our top was bare.

Posey had a very good series. KB had a very good series. Craw paid his fair with his glove, but he left the house without his bat. Longo had 1 BIG hit, but couldn’t muster a whimper outside of that. La Stella was good, but he has no legs (I seriously question if he will play even 1 game in ‘22).

To go back to what we've all been saying before, the Giants weren't even supposed to be in the playoffs this year. The Dodgers have been working this model for years, built up the farm, graduated a lot of good players to the big league club and used some chips to get some really good players too. The Giants just started on the same type of model. It took the Dodgers some years to be top heavy with depth. I get the feeling we'll have to wait a couple more years until the Giants are the same. But, of course, they could still surprise us like they did this year.

With LaStella's health, that may play a factor whether or not they exercise the option on Flores or re-sign Solano. That, and they have to decide if 2021 Estrada is the real deal.

 

[pachyderm]

I'll always love Dusty. This postseason can still be a success to me if Dusty finally wins one.

He's an idiot and the worst manager in the MLB.

 

[Robotech]

He's an idiot and the worst manager in the MLB.

One game closer for our beloved Dusty!

 

[pachyderm]

Giants vs Dodgers umpire explains Wilmer Flores check swing call - Sports Illustrated

First base umpire Gabe Morales called Wilmer Flores's check swing a strike.

www.si.com

OOOOhhhhhh ok. Our bad.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Giants vs Dodgers umpire explains Wilmer Flores check swing call - Sports Illustrated

First base umpire Gabe Morales called Wilmer Flores's check swing a strike.

www.si.com

OOOOhhhhhh ok. Our bad.

Well that explains everything.
Although it’s water under the bridge at this point....
Does he seriously believe that instead of accepting the obvious fact he blew the call, an empty platitude and sad excuse like the one he gave lets him off the hook for his horrible error of judgement??

Ugghhh.
GTFO, Morales.

 

[jeep99tj]

For me this had to have been the worst call in the playoffs since Denkinger in the series with KC and St Louis. On top of that the announcing on TBS was the worst I’ve ever seen. Darling wasn’t too bad but Brian Anderson sounded like he had no clue what was going on and was just winging it. He also seemed to have a Dodger bias and tooted their horn every chance he got. Hopefully he won’t be around for the NLCS.

 

[LHG]

Well that explains everything.
Although it’s water under the bridge at this point....
Does he seriously believe that instead of accepting the obvious fact he blew the call, an empty platitude and sad excuse like the one he gave lets him off the hook for his horrible error of judgement??

Ugghhh.
GTFO, Morales.

The call was awful but it wasn't like Flores even looked like he knew what he was doing there. He probably would have struck out on the next pitch. Its a sad way to end the season but the problem for the Giants wasn't that call. It was the lack of clutch hitting throughout that game. Maybe Flores would have hit a home run on the next pitch. Maybe Kapler should have sent Duggar to the plate instead. Unfortunately, we don't know if things would have been better had the call not been made or if Kapler made the obviously necessary pinch hitter. But the hitters looked the same as the 2002 team did in game 7 of that year's World Series.

 

[SF11704]

In all fairness we are talking about Scherzer here. I don't think that Flores .... or almost anyone else for that matter .... would have been a favorable match up for us. I do think that Duggar would have been a better choice ... but it's all water under the bridge now. Just amazing that we were even their this year.

Looking back though .... getting past Scherzer the first time was almost a gift. That was a great game for Wood and everyone who followed. I think if we lose that game .... we drop the series in 4.

BTW ... an interesting statistic .... we were 12-12 against the Doggies this year ... but BOTH teams won more games in the other team's home field than the home team. It was that way before the NLDS even started ... and it held true even then. The Doggies took two of three at Oracle. They were 5-4 going into the series.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

The call was awful but it wasn't like Flores even looked like he knew what he was doing there. He probably would have struck out on the next pitch. Its a sad way to end the season but the problem for the Giants wasn't that call. It was the lack of clutch hitting throughout that game. Maybe Flores would have hit a home run on the next pitch. Maybe Kapler should have sent Duggar to the plate instead. Unfortunately, we don't know if things would have been better had the call not been made or if Kapler made the obviously necessary pinch hitter. But the hitters looked the same as the 2002 team did in game 7 of that year's World Series.

Sure...whatever....I get it..and I have no problem with any of that.
We'll never know how it might've played out had he called that obvious check swing a ball, but all I wanted to read or hear was just a scintilla or bare minimum of accountability from him.....instead of the same old tired "I don’t have the benefit of multiple camera angles when I’m watching it live" blah blah blah....or "When it happened live, I thought he went, so that’s why I called it a swing." Eff that noise. Give me a break.
2nd guessing Kapler is the much easier way out...and that to me although maybe valid (again, we'll never know) is essentially another bogus excuse...and it gives that ump a pass he doesn't deserve.

 

[LHG]

In all fairness we are talking about Scherzer here. I don't think that Flores .... or almost anyone else for that matter .... would have been a favorable match up for us. I do think that Duggar would have been a better choice ... but it's all water under the bridge now. Just amazing that we were even their this year.

Looking back though .... getting past Scherzer the first time was almost a gift. That was a great game for Wood and everyone who followed. I think if we lose that game .... we drop the series in 4.

BTW ... an interesting statistic .... we were 12-12 against the Doggies this year ... but BOTH teams won more games in the other team's home field than the home team. It was that way before the NLDS even started ... and it held true even then. The Doggies took two of three at Oracle. They were 5-4 going into the series.

I was trying to remember how the teams did at each stadium. I thought the visiting teams did better during the regular season but didn't look it up. It was almost as if home field advantage would have been opposite this year.

 

[LHG]

Sure...whatever....I get it..and I have no problem with any of that.
We'll never know how it might've played out had he called that obvious check swing a ball, but all I wanted to read or hear was just a scintilla or bare minimum of accountability from him.....instead of the same old tired "I don’t have the benefit of multiple camera angles when I’m watching it live" blah blah blah....or "When it happened live, I thought he went, so that’s why I called it a swing." Eff that noise. Give me a break.
2nd guessing Kapler is the much easier way out...and that to me although maybe valid (again, we'll never know) is essentially another bogus excuse...and it gives that ump a pass he doesn't deserve.

Sure, it is nice when umpires admit that they got a crucial call wrong. The moment felt like a rob but I don't want to blame the loss on that call. That is not where it lies. The call just made it feel worse.

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Sure, it is nice when umpires admit that they got a crucial call wrong. The moment felt like a rob but I don't want to blame the loss on that call. That is not where it lies. The call just made it feel worse.

Well sure....and for lack of a better analogy..it was the perfect storm....but it didn't have to be.
Ftr...I still hate how it suddenly and anti-climatically ended though.

That said...MLB needs to do better to cleanup their umpire ranks, tweak the postseason seeding format, and improve play review protocol for situations like that.