Ron Rivera Washed Up

[Stymietee]

I'm not sure you can kick Rivera out of town until he at least finds himself a franchise/semi franchise QB.

If he wants to spend the next three years building up everything else, that's on him when he gets fired.

He went after Stafford hard. I expect us to go after Watson and Rodgers hard. I suspect we will have a top ten pick this year and maybe draft a QB.

Point is Jay had Kirk. Mike had McNabb, RG3 and Kirk. Joe Gibbs is Joe Gibbs. He can win with anyone under center, but Brunell was his Alex Smith. He's not gonna lose it for you. Norv had Brad Johnson.

I'm gonna withhold final judgment on Ron until he finds a franchise QB. However, I will still call things out about him that I don't like in the meantime just like everyone else on this board.

I'm pretty sure that he won't get booted this early in the season. I do appreciate him coming in and attacking the stability issues that were making this organization THE laughing stock franchise in the league.

That said, I don't believe that Rivera is the one who needs to select our franchise QB. I not going to make this pronouncement without reason(s), so here they are;

1. He's ONLY won with one type of player...Cam Newton, a modern day Jim McMahon type, which is not good for the long term and more important, nearly impossible to find today.

2. His track record, prior to and hereafter is abysmal when selecting QB's. Minus Cam, there's been Derek Anderson, Kyle Allen, Heinicke, and Will Grier. Excited yet???

3. His promise this offseason was to make "getting a franchise QB his highest priority" resulting in a failed attempt to get the 33 year old Stafford, signing a Journeyman, trading for another journeyman, and the untested, unproven, extremely raw Heinicke. All while passing up the opportunity to move up in a draft fairly stocked with potential franchise types. Chicago, who selected one pick after Washington moved up for Fields not realizing that Nagy sucks, did so for a price that Washington could have easily matched with the edge going to the team picking first between them.

4. Windows are closing and player's are aging while we wait for him to declare this team as operationally ready to get their franchise QB. Contradictions notwithstanding, Imagine this team one year ago, franchise QB on board and a top five defense. It's true that you cannot fix everything in one fell swoop, but he didn't inherit a team that was completely void of talent or he had to rely upon a GM to help restock it. Getting a franchise QB isn't easy, but it is considered the most important position in the game and players want to win, you do that, or more important, fail to address that and lose your locker room.

5. He's the GM, who hired a GM, and then another, for other duties and their plan to get a franchise QB remains ...???

6. Defenses no longer "win" games, they prevent the other team from winning it. Offenses "win" games and as such no longer reflect a time in which Rivera himself played. Has the game passed him by? Is it possible that there's still a place for ultra conservative, overly cautious head coaches to operate in the NFL? I'm not sure that these questions have been absolutely answered, but without some sort of immediate turn-around, the answer in Washington is likely to come sooner than anyone hoped for when he was hired, after being fired, for exhibiting the same things in Carolina.

 

[Stymietee]

I think they arent hungry

If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt your position, then the issue is a lack of focus.

Leadership set the goals, the goal is winning the Super Bowl, not being "hungry" for that purpose generally means that this goal isn't the focus point or that somewhere in the underbelly of this franchise, there's a realization among players that it can't be reached. Perhaps both is also true!

 

[kbso83432]

Whether Ron should or will be able to pick the next QB are two different things. I was a Kyle Smith guy. The guy who got fired for standing up to Dan, banging his fist on the table and asking the entire room, "are we really drafting Haskins?"

That's the guy I wanted to make the personnel decisions moving forward. I get it. You can't publicly show up your boss no matter how right you are.

That leads me to this. If Ron doesn't pick the next QB in what Dan has described as a coach centric approach, that means Dan himself probably makes that call.

That's why I'm all for giving Ron the leeway to select his QB and see where things go from there.

 

[skinsdad62]

 

[Stymietee]

Whether Ron should or will be able to pick the next QB are two different things. I was a Kyle Smith guy. The guy who got fired for standing up to Dan, banging his fist on the table and asking the entire room, "are we really drafting Haskins?"

That's the guy I wanted to make the personnel decisions moving forward. I get it. You can't publicly show up your boss no matter how right you are.

That leads me to this. If Ron doesn't pick the next QB in what Dan has described as a coach centric approach, that means Dan himself probably makes that call.

That's why I'm all for giving Ron the leeway to select his QB and see where things go from there.

I get it, sad isn't it?

 

[Stymietee]

I really didn't want to say this out loud however, for most it has been self inflicted!

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Lost in some big games? What big games are those? He set rookie records of most TD passes in a season, most completions in a season, most total TDs in a rookie season, most 300 yard assing games in a season by a rookie. Most games with 2 passing TDs in a season by rookie., most games with 3 passing TDs in a season by a rookie. Youngest player to throw for 30 TDs in a season. Was 39 yards shy of throwing for the most passing yeards in a season by a rookie. All that in 15 games. His w/l record was 6-9 of those 9 losses only 2 were by more than 2 scores and only 1 was a b;low out. Of those 5 victories 4 in a row came to close out the season. The Chargers have played the Chiefs 3 times with Herbert as their starting QB. The Chargers are 2-1 in those games winning the last 2. Name one other team that's done that since Mahomes has been their starting QB..

Who in the media called him mild mannered or a soft punk? Where did you get that bullshit from?

Who's acting like the Chasrgers don't have talent? They always had talent. They had talent when Phillip Rivers was there. What elite QB doesn't have elite talent on their team?

A nobody? WTF? TH couldn't hold Herbert's jock if you hog-tied it then super-glued it to his hand.

This would be a TKO post if I were anyone else. Your google research was DOPE but I'll break down what my post meant.
He lost some big games at Oregon, in addition to that, some pre-draft reports suggested his quiet calm demeanor could come off as a lack of love for the game, lack of leadership in the pros. I honestly don't understand where you were going with the Chargers and talent, and Rivers?
I was just saying, put Herbert on the Dolphins or Skins and he is a nobody, in the sense, his numbers wouldn't be impressive because of the roster.
I HOPE you didn't think I was saying TH is better, equal too or almost as good as Herbert, lol.
In summary, Herbert landed in the perfect spot, and those speculating he'd be just as good if we took him over Chase, i strongly strongly disagree.

 

[Breed]

This would be a TKO post if I were anyone else. Your google research was DOPE but I'll break down what my post meant.
He lost some big games at Oregon, in addition to that, some pre-draft reports suggested his quiet calm demeanor could come off as a lack of love for the game, lack of leadership in the pros. I honestly don't understand where you were going with the Chargers and talent, and Rivers?
I was just saying, put Herbert on the Dolphins or Skins and he is a nobody, in the sense, his numbers wouldn't be impressive because of the roster.
I HOPE you didn't think I was saying TH is better, equal too or almost as good as Herbert, lol.
In summary, Herbert landed in the perfect spot, and those speculating he'd be just as good if we took him over Chase, i strongly strongly disagree.

The only google research I did was having to look up all the records Herbert set as a rookie cause I knew there was a shit-load of them. Lost big games at Oregon...so. Matt Leinart won damn near every game including big ones he played in at USC. Where's he at now? What players did or didn't do in college is not the end all be all to what they will do in the NFL.

Lack of love for the game and lack of leadership is a ways away from being a soft punk which what you called him. How many people who watch professional football you think would agree with those assessments?

Why'd you bring up the Chargers having elite talent in the first place? What was your point?

Would Herbert be putting up the same numbers if he was the Skins starting QB as he has in Dago? No, probably not. Would the Skins be better off with Herbert as their starting QB instead of TH? Without question they'd be better off. Would the Skins be better off had they selected Herbert instead of Chase in the draft last year. Absolutely they would be better off.

 

[Stymietee]

This would be a TKO post if I were anyone else. Your google research was DOPE but I'll break down what my post meant.
He lost some big games at Oregon, in addition to that, some pre-draft reports suggested his quiet calm demeanor could come off as a lack of love for the game, lack of leadership in the pros. I honestly don't understand where you were going with the Chargers and talent, and Rivers?
I was just saying, put Herbert on the Dolphins or Skins and he is a nobody, in the sense, his numbers wouldn't be impressive because of the roster.
I HOPE you didn't think I was saying TH is better, equal too or almost as good as Herbert, lol.
In summary, Herbert landed in the perfect spot, and those speculating he'd be just as good if we took him over Chase, i strongly strongly disagree.

The only google research I did was having to look up all the records Herbert set as a rookie cause I knew there was a shit-load of them. Lost big games at Oregon...so. Matt Leinart won damn near every game including big ones he played in at USC. Where's he at now? What players did or didn't do in college is not the end all be all to what they will do in the NFL.

Lack of love for the game and lack of leadership is a ways away from being a soft punk which what you called him. How many people who watch professional football you think would agree with those assessments?

Why'd you bring up the Chargers having elite talent in the first place? What was your point?

Would Herbert be putting up the same numbers if he was the Skins starting QB as he has in Dago? No, probably not. Would the Skins be better off with Herbert as their starting QB instead of TH? Without question they'd be better off. Would the Skins be better off had they selected Herbert instead of Chase in the draft last year. Absolutely they would be better off.

Which would be better if they flipped teams is an interesting question indeed! Here's my take on the subject, although it isn't a clear vote either way.

Chase Young on the Chargers:

Putting Young and Bosa on the same squad is frightening. Charger defensive schemer is Renaldo Hill, new to the job, is probably not on par with JDR... yet. That said, it doesn't take a lot to point to the QB and say "go get him!!" All in all, I'd say Young on the Chargers would be close to the same as he is here.

Justin Herbert here:

Off of the tip, I don't think that RR has the chops to unleash a potential top tier QB, Offensive coordinator Scott Turner however, just might have what it takes to do so, but wouldn't be allowed to do that because of the conservative nature and defensive mindedness of the HC. The problem then becomes what makes Herbert as good as he's become. I don't think that there are questions about his talent or upside, especially since he has the likes of, Keenan Allen, Jared Cook, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler as targets. All are good in their own right and better in combination with Herbert than what Washington has to offer him. He makes them better AND he's also better because of them. BTW: Their backups aren't bad either.

Herbert on Washington comes down to T. Mac, LT in some combination with either running back Gibson or McKissic. There's truly nothing else because of injury or lack of opportunity from younger players. That is hardly a fair comparison, even though Herbert, here would make that aforementioned trio better, I'm not certain that they would make him better, so his impressive numbers would take a fairly decent hit. There's no doubt that the Charger are better suited to get the best out of him than Washington. Now here's the crux of the matter with respect to Herbert being in Washington. I believe that Washington ruins QB's because they rarely match HC's and staff's under the direction of said head coach with personnel or changes in the league. Rarely drafting true stud players or getting them in their prime years, it's a blue collar organization looking for nearly impossible white collar outcomes. So with that in mind, would Herbert be an upgrade over anything Washington currently has, ABSOLUTELY!! at least for a little while.

 

[skinsdad62]

if our team cant get the best out of herbert then it doesnt matter . our issue is defense

for all the talk about DW he was 4-12 last season . he didnt erase much of shit and he played well

right now chase young feels like a bust . he is playing like a me first player as opposed to being a team 1st player

right now herbert is the better player and we made a mistake

 

[Skin'EmAll]

The only google research I did was having to look up all the records Herbert set as a rookie cause I knew there was a shit-load of them. Lost big games at Oregon...so. Matt Leinart won damn near every game including big ones he played in at USC. Where's he at now? What players did or didn't do in college is not the end all be all to what they will do in the NFL.

Lack of love for the game and lack of leadership is a ways away from being a soft punk which what you called him. How many people who watch professional football you think would agree with those assessments?

Why'd you bring up the Chargers having elite talent in the first place? What was your point?

Would Herbert be putting up the same numbers if he was the Skins starting QB as he has in Dago? No, probably not. Would the Skins be better off with Herbert as their starting QB instead of TH? Without question they'd be better off. Would the Skins be better off had they selected Herbert instead of Chase in the draft last year. Absolutely they would be better off.

Long story short, I disagree that the Skins would be better off drafting Herbert over Young. Their teams both went 7-9.
Young much like Herbert, won games for us last year. Now does Herbert look like he has way more potential to unlock with Chargers? Yes! Would he have the same eye popping numbers with the skins, I really doubt it. That's really my point, kinda like Sty mentioned, the Chargers already had lots of pieces. The skins would've gotten Herbert injured, like all the rest of the guys behind this playcalling

 

[skinz2winz]

Whether Ron should or will be able to pick the next QB are two different things. I was a Kyle Smith guy. The guy who got fired for standing up to Dan, banging his fist on the table and asking the entire room, "are we really drafting Haskins?"

That's the guy I wanted to make the personnel decisions moving forward. I get it. You can't publicly show up your boss no matter how right you are.

That leads me to this. If Ron doesn't pick the next QB in what Dan has described as a coach centric approach, that means Dan himself probably makes that call.

That's why I'm all for giving Ron the leeway to select his QB and see where things go from there.

When will this be, lol? Ron seems pretty patient about identifying such player.

 

[skinz2winz]

if our team cant get the best out of herbert then it doesnt matter . our issue is defense

for all the talk about DW he was 4-12 last season . he didnt erase much of shit and he played well

right now chase young feels like a bust . he is playing like a me first player as opposed to being a team 1st player

right now herbert is the better player and we made a mistake

HOLD the phone a minute, CY feels like a bust? Remind you he was ROTY last year, and 3 games in this year and he feels like a bust? you are currently drinking hatorade because CY will have double digit sacks and raises his teams defense up several notches starting with ATL.
As for Herbert, he is better than any QB we currently have, duh but we made a choice and I support that choice since ALL prognosticators said Young was the choice at #2. Reminder, other teams passed (Lions, Giants, Dolphins) on Herbert, looking back now, maybe they shouldn't have.

 

[Sportster 72]

Other teams passed on Tom Brady ... I get your arguement but it can be argued against with many players

 

[Breed]

Which would be better if they flipped teams is an interesting question indeed! Here's my take on the subject, although it isn't a clear vote either way.

Chase Young on the Chargers:

Putting Young and Bosa on the same squad is frightening. Charger defensive schemer is Renaldo Hill, new to the job, is probably not on par with JDR... yet. That said, it doesn't take a lot to point to the QB and say "go get him!!" All in all, I'd say Young on the Chargers would be close to the same as he is here.

Justin Herbert here:

Off of the tip, I don't think that RR has the chops to unleash a potential top tier QB, Offensive coordinator Scott Turner however, just might have what it takes to do so, but wouldn't be allowed to do that because of the conservative nature and defensive mindedness of the HC. The problem then becomes what makes Herbert as good as he's become. I don't think that there are questions about his talent or upside, especially since he has the likes of, Keenan Allen, Jared Cook, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler as targets. All are good in their own right and better in combination with Herbert than what Washington has to offer him. He makes them better AND he's also better because of them. BTW: Their backups aren't bad either.

Herbert on Washington comes down to T. Mac, LT in some combination with either running back Gibson or McKissic. There's truly nothing else because of injury or lack of opportunity from younger players. That is hardly a fair comparison, even though Herbert, here would make that aforementioned trio better, I'm not certain that they would make him better, so his impressive numbers would take a fairly decent hit. There's no doubt that the Charger are better suited to get the best out of him than Washington. Now here's the crux of the matter with respect to Herbert being in Washington. I believe that Washington ruins QB's because they rarely match HC's and staff's under the direction of said head coach with personnel or changes in the league. Rarely drafting true stud players or getting them in their prime years, it's a blue collar organization looking for nearly impossible white collar outcomes. So with that in mind, would Herbert be an upgrade over anything Washington currently has, ABSOLUTELY!! at least for a little while.

Far as Skins coaching fucking up Herbert or holding him back. That's a real possibility. I even made mention of it when the discussion about Herbert started. That said. Lets say Instead og Snyder becoming enamored with Haskins in 2019. Say Snyder becomes enamored with Herbert in 2020. Instead of Haaskins being given the starting gig last year. Herbert is made the Skins starting QB. I personally believe he's never benched like Haskins was and the Skins win at least 2 more games and as many as 4 games.

Many RR doesn't hold Herbert back particularly when he sees his skillset on display. Consider that Cam Newton had more passing attempts. 527, and more passing yards, 4051, as a rookie than any other season he was in Carolina. He also had the 2nd most completions, 310, as a rookie in his Carolina career. Including averaging 40 pass att per game in his first 4 games.

Now no question the Chargers have better receiving options than the Skins, but a case could be made the Skins had a more effective run game. The Chargers had more rushes 466 and more rushing yards 1784 averaging 3.83 a pop and rushing for 12 TDs But the Skins on their 400 rushes for 1611 yards averaged more per carry, 4.03 yards a pop, and scored more TDs, 18, on the ground.

As a team the Chargers scored 384 points/24 pt per while giveing up 426/26.6 pt per The Skins as a team scored 335/20.9 pt per while giving up 329/20.5 pt per. The Chargers also had a FG kicker who was shakier than Hopkins.

Chargers FG kicker 36/39 on XP and 24/33 on FG
Skins FG kicker 30/32 on XP and 27/34 on FG
DC
Now I've already acknowledged that Herbert very likely doesn't toss 31 TDs and I'll even say he throws more than 10 INTS playing for the skins last year. But I think he throws more than 16 which is the total Haskins, Allen n AS had combined last year. So is 21-22 TDs a reasonable number to go with 15 INTs Those extra 5 to 6 TD passes could go a real long way if thrown in the right games.

So anywhere from 9-7 to 11-5 with Herbert at the helm last year. That was the easy part though as we've seen numerous 1 season wonders in DC. It's maintaining that success for another season that the Skins have failed to grasp and given the way this season has started off. Its not a given that even with Herbertt at the helm. There's no guarantee the Skins would be better off than they are now. Though I believe they would be.

 

[skinsdad62]

HOLD the phone a minute, CY feels like a bust? Remind you he was ROTY last year, and 3 games in this year and he feels like a bust? you are currently drinking hatorade because CY will have double digit sacks and raises his teams defense up several notches starting with ATL.
As for Herbert, he is better than any QB we currently have, duh but we made a choice and I support that choice since ALL prognosticators said Young was the choice at #2. Reminder, other teams passed (Lions, Giants, Dolphins) on Herbert, looking back now, maybe they shouldn't have.

Just look at the clips I posted from the bills game

 

[skinsdad62]

 

[skinsdad62]

 

[Breed]

Long story short, I disagree that the Skins would be better off drafting Herbert over Young. Their teams both went 7-9.

Herbert was significantly better than any QB the Skins played last year and for all that elite talent you made mention of the Chargers have on defense. They allowed almost a TD more per game than the Skins defense.

Young much like Herbert, won games for us last year. Now does Herbert look like he has way more potential to unlock with Chargers?

Seriously........Young much like Herbert won games for us last year? Are you high? if not than maybe you should be. What games were those that Young won? Do tell.

Yes! Would he have the same eye popping numbers with the skins, I really doubt it. That's really my point, kinda like Sty mentioned, the Chargers already had lots of pieces. The skins would've gotten Herbert injured, like all the rest of the guys behind this playcalling

I've already acknowledged Herbert wouldn't have the same numbers. He wouldn't need the the same numbers He'd just need better numbers than what AS, Haskins and Allen had combined. Which were 64.7% comp percentage, less than 3796 passing yards, 16 TDs and a 6.3 ypa. I like his chances at surpassing those less than stellar numbers.

AS was 6'3" 213 pounds and had an iffy leg from his past injury in 2018. Allen is 6'3" 210 pounds and got a tough break. Haskins didn't get hurt, but he was an immature ass0 who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, but at 6'4" 218 pounds. He's the closest size-wise to Herbert who is a stout 6'6" 235 pounds. Injury is always a possibility for any player, but I'd take my chances with Herbert over the Terrible Trio

 

[Breed]

He does fuck up that blocking sled for sure.