Ron Rivera Washed Up

[skinz2winz]

Just look at the clips I posted from the bills game

I get you dad but, CY is not a bust and won't be. I believe we are ALL a little down on this defense (rightfully so, we expected more after last season) however, the talent if not void, its still there maturing, developing and aging like fine wine and you will more than likely enjoy its great taste starting with ATL this week. You'll see...

 

[Sportster 72]

Looks like Mr. Loverro agrees with me. Young should have been in camp even if it wasn't required. That is what team leaders do. His recent comments remind of us of Griffin and Haskins. Too soon to call him a bust but not too soon to be concerned because we have seen this act before.

 

[Stymietee]

Far as Skins coaching fucking up Herbert or holding him back. That's a real possibility. I even made mention of it when the discussion about Herbert started. That said. Lets say Instead og Snyder becoming enamored with Haskins in 2019. Say Snyder becomes enamored with Herbert in 2020. Instead of Haaskins being given the starting gig last year. Herbert is made the Skins starting QB. I personally believe he's never benched like Haskins was and the Skins win at least 2 more games and as many as 4 games.

Many RR doesn't hold Herbert back particularly when he sees his skillset on display. Consider that Cam Newton had more passing attempts. 527, and more passing yards, 4051, as a rookie than any other season he was in Carolina. He also had the 2nd most completions, 310, as a rookie in his Carolina career. Including averaging 40 pass att per game in his first 4 games.

Now no question the Chargers have better receiving options than the Skins, but a case could be made the Skins had a more effective run game. The Chargers had more rushes 466 and more rushing yards 1784 averaging 3.83 a pop and rushing for 12 TDs But the Skins on their 400 rushes for 1611 yards averaged more per carry, 4.03 yards a pop, and scored more TDs, 18, on the ground.

As a team the Chargers scored 384 points/24 pt per while giveing up 426/26.6 pt per The Skins as a team scored 335/20.9 pt per while giving up 329/20.5 pt per. The Chargers also had a FG kicker who was shakier than Hopkins.

Chargers FG kicker 36/39 on XP and 24/33 on FG
Skins FG kicker 30/32 on XP and 27/34 on FG
DC
Now I've already acknowledged that Herbert very likely doesn't toss 31 TDs and I'll even say he throws more than 10 INTS playing for the skins last year. But I think he throws more than 16 which is the total Haskins, Allen n AS had combined last year. So is 21-22 TDs a reasonable number to go with 15 INTs Those extra 5 to 6 TD passes could go a real long way if thrown in the right games.

So anywhere from 9-7 to 11-5 with Herbert at the helm last year. That was the easy part though as we've seen numerous 1 season wonders in DC. It's maintaining that success for another season that the Skins have failed to grasp and given the way this season has started off. Its not a given that even with Herbertt at the helm. There's no guarantee the Skins would be better off than they are now. Though I believe they would be.

All good points but they generally presupposes such things as RR being a different dude than he is, the intolerance aimed at Haskins certainly for some of the things that he actually did but also for things that generally come with young QB's.

On that last point, turnovers doomed Haskins (Carolina game) and since we're making suppositions are we to assume that Herbert (given the numbers that you've provided) would not have faced the barrage of bad press, (Haskins earned some of this) near fan revolt, and the hook/benching after an awful three interception game? Whether or not Snyder was smitten with Haskins doesn't hold water in this regard. The deed was done and he's a member of the organization. Coaches and especially head coaches are paid to get the very best out of the guys that they have. If he wasn't the choice, so what!!??, your job is on the line, if you have your perception of a lemon, make lemonade, it might surprise you and be good!! It's a "YOU" problem if you're doing anything less. All of that and other "he wasn't your guy" bullshit, to me is ground for firing!! I don't care, but whatever RR does or did, just don't publicly lie about it. (yeah he did that)

RR is who he is, and there's no clear examples of his ability to deal with a player like Herbert (6' 6' 236) and his skillset. Yes he had Cam (6' 5" 245) but what we know of RR and a near top of the line QB is that a similarly built Cam is a shell of himself because of the pounding that he took under Rivera. Isn't limiting the hits on your QB the one thing that is preached everywhere in order to preserve longevity? How do we know with any degree of certainty that Rivera wouldn't have treated a similarly built Herbert as he did Cam? After all, he is importing almost everything else that he had in Carolina to Washington.

Drafting D. Brown, bringing in Adam Humphries, and Curtis Samuel, were supposed to be answers to the question, what will Washington do to fix its wide receivers issues? I personally would have never bought in Humphries, and said so when they signed him, beyond that, we're still waiting for Samuel to show us something...anything three games into the season. It is possible that Herbert's numbers would have been a bit better than what was produced by the previous bunch, but significantly so, is questionable given the pass catchers were the same. (TM, LT, and whichever RB was in the game.)

I agree with this.. " So is 21-22 TDs a reasonable number to go with 15 INTs Those extra 5 to 6 TD passes could go a real long way if thrown in the right games."
However, as a long time, nearly ruined follower who has witnessed the repetitious "it's Washington, what did you expect" play out for all of these years, I am forced to believe that it wouldn't be the extra 5 to 6 TD's going a long way, but the timing of those 15 int's having a more adverse effect. I love the idea of having a true franchise QB like a Herbert, my issue isn't with him, I question leadership at the next level.

Finally, I can see 9-7 given the make-up of the team last year with Herbert, but you're asking too much of me to imagine 11-5. Stretching the imagination to such a lofty position might cause an old fukka like me to spaz out, start mumbling to myself, develop an uncontrolled drool, and have to be admitted into a home in which they found me screaming, running down the hallways, depends diaper full to the limit, swishing heavily from one side to another and leaving a trail for all to see. Sorry man, I just can't do that to myself!!

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Breed and I weren't on the same page, I didn't read a few things he posted before I spoke, but still, I feel strongly that Chase was the right/better pick for this team.
While Herbert had a prolific year in LA, I don't believe his wins and stats would have been the same here. Why do I say this?
The Chargers have a better roster and offensive coordinator

 

[Stymietee]

Breed and I weren't on the same page, I didn't read a few things he posted before I spoke, but still, I feel strongly that Chase was the right/better pick for this team.
While Herbert had a prolific year in LA, I don't believe his wins and stats would have been the same here. Why do I say this?
The Chargers have a better roster and offensive coordinator

I agree with you...

In that moment Young was the pick!

Joe Lombardi has a much better resume' than Turner.

For as much as they are our guys... T. McLaurin, Logan Thomas and pick your running back, does not come close enough to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and Donald Parham,.

 

[kbso83432]

Not gonna lie, I was all in on Chase and still am. I'd of course rather have Herbert right now. Full disclosure I thought he would flame out like most Pac 10 qbs.

 

[Breed]

I'm not feelin your fascination with Haskins at all @Stymietee and using RR's relationship with Haskins as a measuring stick to how he might've dealt with Herbert is totally off base. As is using Cam's perchant for being Carolina's short yardage RB. That was always a part of Cam's game at Auburn, at juco and likely before that. Should RR have protected Cam against himself in that regard? I think he should have for sure, but Cam was the driving force behind that and he should've protected himself. Fortunately that wouldn't have been an issue with Herbert so its a moot point.

RR has shown he's more than willing to work with a young QB with his relationship with Cam. The biggest different between Haskins, Cam and Herbert as I see it is that starting out their NFL carteers Herbert was more ready to be a traditional NFL QB. As for being unable to see 11 wins with Herbert at QB for the 2020 Skins, why not? Both Giants games are winnable with even marginally better QB play, the Det game if the Skins didn't sleepwalk through the entire 1st half and W/O question. Haskins shitty, unprepared QB play was a significant factor in the 20-15 loss to Seattle. Haskins had a shitty 5.4 ypa, 2 INTs and didn't lead a TD drive till the 4th qt. And it was the overriding factor in the loss to Carolina where he had another stellar ypa of 5.5, 2 INTs a lost fumble and didn't lead any TD drives whatsoever. Those 5 turnovers in those 2 games by the QB are the definition of killer tirnovers. Now if you wanna say Herbert would've committed similar turnovers that's cool. I respectfully disagree. If you wanna say Herbert displays the same inept shitty QBing that Haskins did in those games that only leads the Skins to 2 TD drives and 18 points totall in those 2 games. Well, lets just say I see it differently.

The bottom line is this far as 2020 goes. The Chargers have a better receiving crew than the Skins. The Skins had a more effective running game than the Chargers. The Skins defense outperformed the Chargers defense. Herbert is a significantly better QB than Haskins, Heiney, Allen and Alex. Swap out Chase Young for Justin Herbert for the 2020 season and the Skins win double digit games in 2020.

 

[Breed]

Breed and I weren't on the same page, I didn't read a few things he posted before I spoke, but still, I feel strongly that Chase was the right/better pick for this team.
While Herbert had a prolific year in LA, I don't believe his wins and stats would have been the same here. Why do I say this?
The Chargers have a better roster and offensive coordinator

Not to rush you or anything. I'm still waiting on that dope of the games that Chase Young won for the Skins in 2020.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

I agree with you...

In that moment Young was the pick!

Joe Lombardi has a much better resume' than Turner.

For as much as they are our guys... T. McLaurin, Logan Thomas and pick your running back, does not come close enough to Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekeler, and Donald Parham,.

I completely agree, I'm a McLaurin fanboy but he's not at Allens level yet. I just didn't wanna be the first to say it.
@Breed
If we are being technical, although he didn't do it by himself, or as i think i said single handedly...IMO...Chase Young, won us the cincy, and SF game.
Much like Herbert getting credit for some solid wins last year, he didn't do it by himself.

 

[Sportster 72]

Nobody in the league does it by them self ... not even Brady or Rodgers.

I was not pissed at the WTF for drafting Young. He seemed like the likely pick and to be honest I was not up to speed on Herbert. It is easy to play this game after the draft. As I have said on several occasions, there is plenty of time for Young to become the beast we all hope he will be.

A top flight QB always trumps a top flight DE. The flip side could have been drafting Tua and watching Young be that beast somewhere else.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

I agree Sportster, if we picked a QB, it wouldn't have been Herbert.

 

[Stymietee]

I'm not feelin your fascination with Haskins at all @Stymietee and using RR's relationship with Haskins as a measuring stick to how he might've dealt with Herbert is totally off base. As is using Cam's perchant for being Carolina's short yardage RB. That was always a part of Cam's game at Auburn, at juco and likely before that. Should RR have protected Cam against himself in that regard? I think he should have for sure, but Cam was the driving force behind that and he should've protected himself. Fortunately that wouldn't have been an issue with Herbert so its a moot point.

RR has shown he's more than willing to work with a young QB with his relationship with Cam. The biggest different between Haskins, Cam and Herbert as I see it is that starting out their NFL carteers Herbert was more ready to be a traditional NFL QB. As for being unable to see 11 wins with Herbert at QB for the 2020 Skins, why not? Both Giants games are winnable with even marginally better QB play, the Det game if the Skins didn't sleepwalk through the entire 1st half and W/O question. Haskins shitty, unprepared QB play was a significant factor in the 20-15 loss to Seattle. Haskins had a shitty 5.4 ypa, 2 INTs and didn't lead a TD drive till the 4th qt. And it was the overriding factor in the loss to Carolina where he had another stellar ypa of 5.5, 2 INTs a lost fumble and didn't lead any TD drives whatsoever. Those 5 turnovers in those 2 games by the QB are the definition of killer tirnovers. Now if you wanna say Herbert would've committed similar turnovers that's cool. I respectfully disagree. If you wanna say Herbert displays the same inept shitty QBing that Haskins did in those games that only leads the Skins to 2 TD drives and 18 points totall in those 2 games. Well, lets just say I see it differently.

The bottom line is this far as 2020 goes. The Chargers have a better receiving crew than the Skins. The Skins had a more effective running game than the Chargers. The Skins defense outperformed the Chargers defense. Herbert is a significantly better QB than Haskins, Heiney, Allen and Alex. Swap out Chase Young for Justin Herbert for the 2020 season and the Skins win double digit games in 2020.

I have no fascination with Haskins, I just believe that time, as it always does, reveals to us the error in our thinking. So, I'll wait for the final verdict on Haskins to become known.

Isn't that the point with respect to RR and his ability to handle young QB's he ONLY had Cam and you have to admit, Cam had the when all else fails...run, aspect to his game, Herbert not so much! Yes RR should have protected Cam by not relying upon that in his offensive scheme as much as he did. The only other youngster that he's handled is Heinicke and he's already limiting his best asset in an attempt to make him more of a pocket QB. Bottom line if you trust Rivera, power to ya, just understand that I don't.

Didn't you provide those numbers for Herbert??? (21-22 TD's 15 Ints) and didn't you suggest that those extra "5 to 6 TD passes could go a real long way, if thrown in the right games?" Now, if I haven't gotten any of this wrong thus far, why the emphasis on timely TD passes and no suggestion that those 15 Ints if thrown at very untimely moments wouldn't also "go a long way" in the opposite direction? The thing is, this is Washington, bad shit happens with this organization so as far as painting the rosier picture that might have come with those extra 5-6 TD's the current state of play here informs me that the the interceptions would have done more damage than the TD would.

All said, I think it's reasonable to see the 2020 team going 9-7 but 11-5 would have made them serious Super Bowl contenders and for anyone to suggest that to me is putting too much strain on an already vivid imagination.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Herbert wouldn't have beaten Brady in the playoff game, so this conversation may be a stalemate at this point.

 

[skinz2winz]

Heck, I like our team, we just need a QB. We will have one soon enough according to Sty so let's be patient as dad preaches and support who is out there for now. I really want to see this defense have a come out party this weekend!

 

[Sportster 72]

Herbert wouldn't have beaten Brady in the playoff game, so this conversation may be a stalemate at this point.

Heinicke played well that game.

The WTF defense came in hot and got tossed around that game. Point to ponder, we have not seen that hot defense since.

 

[Breed]

I have no fascination with Haskins, I just believe that time, as it always does, reveals to us the error in our thinking. So, I'll wait for the final verdict on Haskins to become known.

Isn't that the point with respect to RR and his ability to handle young QB's he ONLY had Cam and you have to admit, Cam had the when all else fails...run, aspect to his game, Herbert not so much! Yes RR should have protected Cam by not relying upon that in his offensive scheme as much as he did. The only other youngster that he's handled is Heinicke and he's already limiting his best asset in an attempt to make him more of a pocket QB. Bottom line if you trust Rivera, power to ya, just understand that I don't.

Didn't you provide those numbers for Herbert??? (21-22 TD's 15 Ints) and didn't you suggest that those extra "5 to 6 TD passes could go a real long way, if thrown in the right games?" Now, if I haven't gotten any of this wrong thus far, why the emphasis on timely TD passes and no suggestion that those 15 Ints if thrown at very untimely moments wouldn't also "go a long way" in the opposite direction? The thing is, this is Washington, bad shit happens with this organization so as far as painting the rosier picture that might have come with those extra 5-6 TD's the current state of play here informs me that the the interceptions would have done more damage than the TD would.

All said, I think it's reasonable to see the 2020 team going 9-7 but 11-5 would have made them serious Super Bowl contenders and for anyone to suggest that to me is putting too much strain on an already vivid imagination.

You just started a thread pondering who was more an issue in the Buffalo game, TH or the pass catchers. We both came to the conclusion it was some of both. Perrhaps RR feels TH is leaving the pocket too soon or not fully going over his progressions before he starts leaving the pocket. If that's the case the only way to get him to improve upon his pocket passing is to have him stay in the pocket and pass. If that's the case, RR isn't trying to limit TH's best asset. He's trying to improve a weaker aspect of TH's game which will improve his all around game in general.

I did far as the numbers. And here are some more numbers from 2020. Smith/Haskins/Allen fumbled 9 times losing 4 of them. The trio also scored 2 rushing TDs. So in total the trio was responsible for 18 total TDs passing/rushing and 20 total turn overs INTs/fum lost

Herbert from 2020 fumbled 8 times losing 1. He also scored 5 rushing TDs. So with his imaginary 22 passing TDs. as QB of the Skins. Herbert would account for 27 total TDs for the Skins and 16 total turn overs.

33% more total TDs from the QB position would go a ways in upping the possibility of the 2020 Skins winning a couple more games I'd say. While 25% less turn overs from the QB position would go a ways towards the possibility of not losing a couple more games for the 2020 Skins. Yeah, 11-5 would've been doable with Herbert at QB for the 2020 Skins. Does winning 11 games make the 2020 Skins serious Super Bowl contenders. Who knows, but I do know someone who thought the 2021 Skins were a QB away from the Super Bowl and wanted to go all in trade-wise to acquire a certain one. That sounds way out there right about now.

If the 2020 Skins did win 11 games and one of those wins was against the Seahawks, They would've been the #3 seed and played the Rams in rd 1 instead of the Bucs.. Does that make a difference. i can't call it, but all that bad shit you say would probably happen.. Usually happens early on or midway through season 1 and the Skins make some kinda late season run and get in the playoffs where they will eventually fall short, 2-6 playoff record over the last 6 times the Skins have made the p[layoffs. Setting up visions of next year and rising hopes for fans as they, we, dream about a possible return to the glory days. Then season 2 rolls around and it got shot all to fuckin hell in a hand-basket.

Last year was our season 1 which we've all experienced 1999, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2015, 2020. The Skins are decent at being a one year wonder. Its always been the follow up year that they haven't quite figured out yet. Year 1 somehow manages to be golden, at least to many. IKts one reason I don't understand all this push-back. Going 11-5 is pretty much the same as going 7-9 if you get your ass paddled in the first rd of the playoffs. The only real difference as I see it would be the much loftier expectations for next year that 11-5 would bring. making the crash n brun gthat muc h more crashier and burnier. Oh, yeah, I guess it leads to thinking nonsensical shit as well like believing a DE is as responsible for wins as a QB. Be that as it may. Justin Herbert as I see it would've definitely been capable of leading the 2020 Skins to an 11-5 record, Hell, if Heineystarted the season as the signal called and stays upright for the year he probably gets the Skins to 9-7.

Nah., the real trick will be a QB who leads the Skins to consecutive playoff appearances. Is Justin Herbert good enough to do that. I dunno, I think so, but I just don't know. I know this though. The Skins would have a much better at it had they drafted Herbert instead of Chase Young.

That's all I'm really sayin.

 

[Breed]

Herbert wouldn't have beaten Brady in the playoff game, so this conversation may be a stalemate at this point.

Maybe if Chase had switched positions to QB. The Skins would've beat the Bucs. It would've added to Chase's winning games for the Skins count. Word.

 

[Stymietee]

You just started a thread pondering who was more an issue in the Buffalo game, TH or the pass catchers. We both came to the conclusion it was some of both. Perrhaps RR feels TH is leaving the pocket too soon or not fully going over his progressions before he starts leaving the pocket. If that's the case the only way to get him to improve upon his pocket passing is to have him stay in the pocket and pass. If that's the case, RR isn't trying to limit TH's best asset. He's trying to improve a weaker aspect of TH's game which will improve his all around game in general.

I did far as the numbers. And here are some more numbers from 2020. Smith/Haskins/Allen fumbled 9 times losing 4 of them. The trio also scored 2 rushing TDs. So in total the trio was responsible for 18 total TDs passing/rushing and 20 total turn overs INTs/fum lost

Herbert from 2020 fumbled 8 times losing 1. He also scored 5 rushing TDs. So with his imaginary 22 passing TDs. as QB of the Skins. Herbert would account for 27 total TDs for the Skins and 16 total turn overs.

33% more total TDs from the QB position would go a ways in upping the possibility of the 2020 Skins winning a couple more games I'd say. While 25% less turn overs from the QB position would go a ways towards the possibility of not losing a couple more games for the 2020 Skins. Yeah, 11-5 would've been doable with Herbert at QB for the 2020 Skins. Does winning 11 games make the 2020 Skins serious Super Bowl contenders. Who knows, but I do know someone who thought the 2021 Skins were a QB away from the Super Bowl and wanted to go all in trade-wise to acquire a certain one. That sounds way out there right about now.

If the 2020 Skins did win 11 games and one of those wins was against the Seahawks, They would've been the #3 seed and played the Rams in rd 1 instead of the Bucs.. Does that make a difference. i can't call it, but all that bad shit you say would probably happen.. Usually happens early on or midway through season 1 and the Skins make some kinda late season run and get in the playoffs where they will eventually fall short, 2-6 playoff record over the last 6 times the Skins have made the p[layoffs. Setting up visions of next year and rising hopes for fans as they, we, dream about a possible return to the glory days. Then season 2 rolls around and it got shot all to fuckin hell in a hand-basket.

Last year was our season 1 which we've all experienced 1999, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2015, 2020. The Skins are decent at being a one year wonder. Its always been the follow up year that they haven't quite figured out yet. Year 1 somehow manages to be golden, at least to many. IKts one reason I don't understand all this push-back. Going 11-5 is pretty much the same as going 7-9 if you get your ass paddled in the first rd of the playoffs. The only real difference as I see it would be the much loftier expectations for next year that 11-5 would bring. making the crash n brun gthat muc h more crashier and burnier. Oh, yeah, I guess it leads to thinking nonsensical shit as well like believing a DE is as responsible for wins as a QB. Be that as it may. Justin Herbert as I see it would've definitely been capable of leading the 2020 Skins to an 11-5 record, Hell, if Heineystarted the season as the signal called and stays upright for the year he probably gets the Skins to 9-7.

Nah., the real trick will be a QB who leads the Skins to consecutive playoff appearances. Is Justin Herbert good enough to do that. I dunno, I think so, but I just don't know. I know this though. The Skins would have a much better at it had they drafted Herbert instead of Chase Young.

That's all I'm really sayin.

I didn't write the article, I just asked the pertinent questions that it raised.

I get working on his game, but you cannot sacrifice real games while your QB gets used to that adjustment. Sure work on his game, but take advantage of his strength until he masters the fix. (they have been working on it since training camp, IJS)

I'm pretty sure that I've made my point in as much as what sort of record I could see them having. I respect your 11-5, and hope that you can respect my 9-7.

I still think that they are a QB away! I also still think that they should go hard for the second best QB in the game. Weird that I want Washington, for once in it's modern day history to have a QB, when ranked, doesn't fall below 5 in the entire league (and just happens to be far better (more dynamic) than Herbert) huh?? Bad Sty!!

I don't disagree with you that they would be much better off had they drafted Herbert instead of Young, but that's rewriting history with hindsight based on the state of the current status of both players and this team. All of that aside, why is it ok for you to have wanted a rising star like Herbert, and this organization failing to get a top of the line QB, yet not ok, for me to still want them to go after one?

 

[Rowdy]

How many accusers is Watson up to 25? The man is a sexual predator.

Is Watson worth giving up your integrity plus some 1sts??? Many don’t think so and it’s easy to understand why

Your eagles are fixing to give up theirs.

 

[Stymietee]

Many don’t think so and it’s easy to understand why

Many, do think so, and it's easy to understand why.

Somewhere in your rantings I'm sure there's some inane point that you want to make about all people thinking just like you! We're a tough bunch on this board, so come correct if you can, or you WILL get called out on your bullshit!