The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[Mecca]

So,

your position is that high school players should not enter the NBA directly and you are using 3 players who didn’t enter the NBA directly out of high school as evidence for that?

Brilliant.]
Lmfao

 

[dtgold88]

09-10 Wade - 27 ppg 7 apg 5 rpg 1.2 spg - 5th in the NBA in scoring and arguably a top 3 player in the NBA - Kobe and Lebron, 1 & 2.
ALL-NBA - 1st
ALL-DEFENSIVE - 2nd

13-14 Kyrie - 21 ppg 6 apg 4 rpg 1.5 spg

09-10 Bosh - 24 ppg 11 rpg - 12th in MVP voting - 40 win Toronto team

13-14 Love - 26 ppg 13 rpg 5 apg - 11th in MVP voting - 40 win Minny team
ALL NBA - 2nd


Wade was a much better player than Kyrie when Lebron joined them both.
Love was a better player than Bosh by a small margin imo when they joined Lebron.

Good numbers/info...all I'd point out is pretty sure Kyrie was around 22-23 when Lebron joined him. Wade was probably in prime of career.

 

[dtgold88]

Yes. Far better.

Wade was an elite 2 way player in his prime. When they teamed up, the top 3 players in the NBA were:

1) LeBron
2) Wade or Kobe

And I am not even sure anyone else even belonged in the conversation. Wade was a dominant force. Kyrie at his best couldn’t get to that level because Wade’s offense was comparable and he was an elite defender on top.

AND Wade wasn’t batshit crazy. He was always a great teammate whether he was top dog or a role player in his later years.

Not close at all.

Wade never showed he could do anything for a team without Lebron or shaq (or Bosh).

agree Wade a better teammate (and human)

 

[dtgold88]

Great post. I do disagree with the last part though. I don’t think Love was better than Bosh. He may have had more status because of the stat lines he posted in Minnesota. But Bosh was the better player due to all around contribution.

Not really.

 

[dtgold88]

Wade was the clear number 1 on that first title team with Shaq. Shaq even admits it.

In 2011, the Heat failed because Wade and LeBron deferred to each other too much trying not to ruffle feathers.

agree with that second part...once Lebron realize he was the far better player (and in this case he was far better) they took off.

 

[DJ]

So,

your position is that high school players should not enter the NBA directly and you are using 3 players who didn’t enter the NBA directly out of high school as evidence for that?

Brilliant.

BOOM.

 

[tlance]

agree with that second part...once Lebron realize he was the far better player (and in this case he was far better) they took off.

Put it like this.

The gap between LeBron and Wade in 2011 was a lot less than the gap between Wade and Kyrie.

I swear you overvalue every player who has donned a Cav uniform by 150%

Here were Wade’s numbers 2 years before LeBron and the year after:

2009: 30.2 (scoring champ) 5 REB, 7.5 AST, 2.2 STL, 1.3 BLK, 14.7 WS, 30.4 PER
2010: 26.6, 4.8 REb, 6.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.1 BLK, 13 WS, 28.0 PER
2011: 25.5, 6.4 REB, 4.6 AST, 1.5 STL, 1.1 BLK, 12.8 WS, 25.6 PER

For Kyrie we will do best season with LeBron and 2 best without:
2017: 25.2 PPG, 3.2 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.2 STL, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 23 PER
2018: 24.4 PPG, 3.8 REB, 5.1 AST, 1.1 STl, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 25.0 PER
2019: 23.8 PPG, 5.0 REB, 6.9 AST, 1.5 STL, .5 BLK, 9.1 WS, 24.3 PER

Sorry dude, but that isn’t close. You are forgetting how great Wade was while also overrating Kyrie.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Good numbers/info...all I'd point out is pretty sure Kyrie was around 22-23 when Lebron joined him. Wade was probably in prime of career.

Yeah I thought the whole point of the convo was when they joined Lebron how good was each duo...

Either way, Kyrie had a nice couple years and meshed with Lebron for so many question marks about his passing and spot up shooting but he isn’t close to Wade. Wade was a superstar and top 25 player of all-time

 

[Shanemansj13]

Put it like this.

The gap between LeBron and Wade in 2011 was a lot less than the gap between Wade and Kyrie.

I swear you overvalue every player who has donned a Cav uniform by 150%

Here were Wade’s numbers 2 years before LeBron and the year after:

2009: 30.2 (scoring champ) 5 REB, 7.5 AST, 2.2 STL, 1.3 BLK, 14.7 WS, 30.4 PER
2010: 26.6, 4.8 REb, 6.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.1 BLK, 13 WS, 28.0 PER
2011: 25.5, 6.4 REB, 4.6 AST, 1.5 STL, 1.1 BLK, 12.8 WS, 25.6 PER

For Kyrie we will do best season with LeBron and 2 best without:
2017: 25.2 PPG, 3.2 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.2 STL, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 23 PER
2018: 24.4 PPG, 3.8 REB, 5.1 AST, 1.1 STl, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 25.0 PER
2019: 23.8 PPG, 5.0 REB, 6.9 AST, 1.5 STL, .5 BLK, 9.1 WS, 24.3 PER

Sorry dude, but that isn’t close. You are forgetting how great Wade was while also overrating Kyrie.

People do tend to forget Wade in his prime bc it didn’t last as long as other top 25 players of all-time. He averaged like 37 ppg when they won the ship. That is MJ/Lebron territory. He was a menace/unstoppable. Kyrie to his credit is also a great scorer but there really isnt a facet of the game Wade wasn’t great or very good at tbh. Hence, why he was a superstar

 

[WiggyRuss]

If you're a projected top 15-20 pick then you should always enter the draft out of HS if/when the NBA bring that back.

i dont agree.

Zion is prob case #1 for that.

 

[tlance]

i dont agree.

Zion is prob case #1 for that.

It’s just a lot harder to evaluate a high school player because of the competition they face and the fact that they are a year younger. You have to project more.

For every Zion there is a Kwame Brown. Which I think is the point OP was trying to make.

But to @bksballer89 point, I tend to agree. Yes Zion made a few extra million by going to Duke for a year, but he would have been a top 6-7 pick (maybe top 3) out of high school too. Some guys ranked that high have their stock take a major hit, like Nassir Little, for example.

But if you are good enough, whether a player comes out of high school or does 1 year or college they still have every opportunity to develop. The risk is on the team. Way more likely the team makes a mistake and picks a bust when drafting a high school player.

And for the guys who get underdrafted out of high school, they make it up and then some on the back end.

 

[trojanfan12]

It’s just a lot harder to evaluate a high school player because of the competition they face and the fact that they are a year younger. You have to project more.

For every Zion there is a Kwame Brown. Which I think is the point OP was trying to make.

But to @bksballer89 point, I tend to agree. Yes Zion made a few extra million by going to Duke for a year, but he would have been a top 6-7 pick (maybe top 3) out of high school too. Some guys ranked that high have their stock take a major hit, like Nassir Little, for example.

But if you are good enough, whether a player comes out of high school or does 1 year or college they still have every opportunity to develop. The risk is on the team. Way more likely the team makes a mistake and picks a bust when drafting a high school player.

And for the guys who get underdrafted out of high school, they make it up and then some on the back end.

Yeah, imo, the one and done is just a bad thing all around. I kind of get the point of it, but it was poorly executed. The NBA basically came up with a rule to not allow kids to come straight out of high school because some kid sitting by himself, undrafted in a room, made for some cringe worthy tv during the draft.

So they basically force a kid to go to college when he doesn't want to be there and he's going to leave before he can really get any benefit out of college.

I like that they are allowing kids to go into the G-league rather than have to go to college.

Kind of makes the G-league a vocational school for basketball players.

 

[dtgold88]

Put it like this.

The gap between LeBron and Wade in 2011 was a lot less than the gap between Wade and Kyrie.

I swear you overvalue every player who has donned a Cav uniform by 150%

Here were Wade’s numbers 2 years before LeBron and the year after:

2009: 30.2 (scoring champ) 5 REB, 7.5 AST, 2.2 STL, 1.3 BLK, 14.7 WS, 30.4 PER
2010: 26.6, 4.8 REb, 6.5 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.1 BLK, 13 WS, 28.0 PER
2011: 25.5, 6.4 REB, 4.6 AST, 1.5 STL, 1.1 BLK, 12.8 WS, 25.6 PER

For Kyrie we will do best season with LeBron and 2 best without:
2017: 25.2 PPG, 3.2 REB, 5.8 AST, 1.2 STL, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 23 PER
2018: 24.4 PPG, 3.8 REB, 5.1 AST, 1.1 STl, .3 BLK, 8.9 WS, 25.0 PER
2019: 23.8 PPG, 5.0 REB, 6.9 AST, 1.5 STL, .5 BLK, 9.1 WS, 24.3 PER

Sorry dude, but that isn’t close. You are forgetting how great Wade was while also overrating Kyrie.

wow...those numbers are all very close. Thanks for the laugh. You pretty much proved my point. want to bring up Wade a better teammate and not crazy? No disagreement.

Wade had already reached his prime when Lebron joined him then started to regress. Kyrie was ascending and kept ascending with Lebron on Cavs.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah I thought the whole point of the convo was when they joined Lebron how good was each duo...

Either way, Kyrie had a nice couple years and meshed with Lebron for so many question marks about his passing and spot up shooting but he isn’t close to Wade. Wade was a superstar and top 25 player of all-time

You thought right...but Wade began to regress while with Lebron and Kyrie kept ascending.

Not even saying Kyrie better...as usual the absurd "not close" (while with Lebron) is extreme.

 

[Shanemansj13]

You thought right...but Wade began to regress while with Lebron and Kyrie kept ascending.

Not even saying Kyrie better...as usual the absurd "not close" (while with Lebron) is extreme.

When Lebron joined Wade, Wade was still in his prime. When Lebron joined Kyrie wasn't even in his prime yet. So yeah, it wasn't close at that point and I venture to say that was the whole point.
Once Kyrie started progressing in the 2nd and 3rd year with Lebron than he closed the gap but he never had the full overall game Wade did, Wade was a far better defensive player than Kyrie, while still being just as good if not better than Kyrie at every facet of the game.

 

[dtgold88]

When Lebron joined Wade, Wade was still in his prime. When Lebron joined Kyrie wasn't even in his prime yet. So yeah, it wasn't close at that point and I venture to say that was the whole point.
Once Kyrie started progressing in the 2nd and 3rd year with Lebron than he closed the gap but he never had the full overall game Wade did, Wade was a far better defensive player than Kyrie, while still being just as good if not better than Kyrie at every facet of the game.

I was thinking entire time together. Wade spent a couple years on top and regressed. Kyrie was a great (not elite) player when Lebron arrived and ascended.

Either way, my whole thing was the Cavs as a whole were better than Miami (at least the 2017 team was). Wade at best was better than Kyrie, but unlike some others I believe Love was as good or better than Bosh and the Cavs had more depth.

 

[tlance]

wow...those numbers are all very close. Thanks for the laugh. You pretty much proved my point. want to bring up Wade a better teammate and not crazy? No disagreement.

Wade had already reached his prime when Lebron joined him then started to regress. Kyrie was ascending and kept ascending with Lebron on Cavs.

LOL.

You think that is close?

 

[tlance]

When Lebron joined Wade, Wade was still in his prime. When Lebron joined Kyrie wasn't even in his prime yet. So yeah, it wasn't close at that point and I venture to say that was the whole point.
Once Kyrie started progressing in the 2nd and 3rd year with Lebron than he closed the gap but he never had the full overall game Wade did, Wade was a far better defensive player than Kyrie, while still being just as good if not better than Kyrie at every facet of the game.

Exactly not close

Prime Wade >>>>>> than Kyrie’s best- which probably came(coming) post LeBron anyhow.

 

[CitySushi]

LOL.

You think that is close?

Numbers never tell the story. It's a bad way to compare actual value of players. Wade was a top 5 NBA player at the time. Kyrie was somewhere in the range of top 20. That's a significant difference despite their production numbers being similar.

Like in 2017.

Player A:

23.1 PPG, 10.7 APG, 4.2 RPG, 2.0 SPG

Player B:

25.3 PPG, 6.6 APG, 4.5 RPG, 1.8 SPG.


Based on those numbers would you value those players similarly? Player A is John Wall and Player B is Steph Curry.

 

[tlance]

Numbers never tell the story. It's a bad way to compare actual value of players. Wade was a top 5 NBA player at the time. Kyrie was somewhere in the range of top 20. That's a significant difference despite their production numbers being similar.

Like in 2017.

Player A:

23.1 PPG, 10.7 APG, 4.2 RPG, 2.0 SPG

Player B:

25.3 PPG, 6.6 APG, 4.5 RPG, 1.8 SPG.


Based on those numbers would you value those players similarly? Player A is John Wall and Player B is Steph Curry.

I agree.

In this case however, the numbers are pretty lopsided too.

Wade’s first year with LeBron was statistically close to Kyrie’s best year (still better) but close. Overall the numbers aren’t that close.

Glad to see you man, we were worried.