Just for fun: if you could see any player from past eras play in today's NBA, who would you want to see?

[trojanfan12]

I hated Kareem as well, but I loved Magic. I'll never forget Magics first pro win, he runs over and jumps KAJ and is losing his shit hugging everyone and Kareem was like, calm the fuck down young fella, it's a long season. That's just who Magic was though

Yep, and Magic said he was gonna hug him after every one that they won.

Probably when Kareem realized that Magic was just a different cat and best to go along and enjoy the ride. lol

It was funny, been a die-hard Lakers fan since I was 8 and to this day, Magic is my favorite player of all-time...but back then, when Converse had the Magic shoe and the Bird shoe...I wore the Bird shoe because I liked that it was black. lol

 

[tc1]

I presume you watched the HBO series Winning Time? If not you should check it out (first season only)

Some facts are changed around but not so much as to ruin it, and the casting is perfect.

Some of the principles -- notably West, who initiated legal action against it -- disavowed the series for its inaccuracy.

How Accurate Is HBO's Winning Time? - Looper

HBO's "Winning Time" is based on the true story of the Los Angeles Lakers' "Showtime" team, and it sticks to the facts, for the most part.

www.looper.com

https://www.vulture.com/2022/04/winning-time-real-life-cast-reacts-showtime-lakers.html

https://www.clnsmedia.com/norm-nixon-says-hbos-winning-time-not-accurate/

 

[msgkings322]

Some of the principles -- notably West, who initiated legal action against it -- disavowed the series for its inaccuracy.

How Accurate Is HBO's Winning Time? - Looper

HBO's "Winning Time" is based on the true story of the Los Angeles Lakers' "Showtime" team, and it sticks to the facts, for the most part.

www.looper.com

https://www.vulture.com/2022/04/winning-time-real-life-cast-reacts-showtime-lakers.html

https://www.clnsmedia.com/norm-nixon-says-hbos-winning-time-not-accurate/

Yes I mentioned the inaccuracies, didn't ruin it for me. To quote that first link you provided, "sticks to the facts, for the most part" is also how I'd describe it.

West was mad about how he was portrayed even though it seemed pretty well handled to me.

 

[tlance]

I'm not actually sure -- I see a lot of dumb things happening in the NBA. But assuming they are, most would need to revamp their roster to do so -- exactly as we saw happen last time around.



It's more likely the league would have to adapt to him, again, as we have already seen.

Nope.

Any scrub can come in and use a foul on Shaq. Don’t have to be big and strong to do it.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Yep, and Magic said he was gonna hug him after every one that they won.

Probably when Kareem realized that Magic was just a different cat and best to go along and enjoy the ride. lol

It was funny, been a die-hard Lakers fan since I was 8 and to this day, Magic is my favorite player of all-time...but back then, when Converse had the Magic shoe and the Bird shoe...I wore the Bird shoe because I liked that it was black. lol

I loved both Magic and Bird but neither team. I thought my Mavs had a shot to beat yall in the 84 playoffs, we were tied with 15 seconds left and Derek Harper dribbled the clock out and started celebrating thinking we were up one. We lost in OT. Broke their back, lost the series 4-1 but it might have gone different without an all time bone head gaffe

 

[trojanfan12]

I loved both Magic and Bird but neither team. I thought my Mavs had a shot to beat yall in the 84 playoffs, we were tied with 15 seconds left and Derek Harper dribbled the clock out and started celebrating thinking we were up one. We lost in OT. Broke their back, lost the series 4-1 but it might have gone different without an all time bone head gaffe

Yep, instead of being tied 2-2, the Lakers went up 3-1 with the series headed back to LA.

 

[tc1]

If you want me to agree that his rookie season didn't show much improvement in his team's record and that's strange for a much hyped rookie, I'd agree.

Didn't show any improvement, at all. In fact, showed decline until a couple late-season wins over tanking teams. And that's not "strange", it has never happened for any other alleged "generational" rookie, and not even with many who were no where near as hyped.

Orlando improved +15 games by drafting Dwight Howard. The Pelicans improved +6 games by drafting Anthony Davis -- who was still incredibly raw offensively. The Bucks improved +10 with Andrew Bogut. Joe Barry Carroll and the Warriors improved +14. Toronto and Bargnani were +20. Glenn Robinson and the Bucks improved by 14 games. Kent Benson and the Bucks were +14. Joe Smith and the Warriors were +10.

To find top picks whose teams showed no, or little, improvement, one has to go down to the level of guys like Brad Daugherty ( +2 ), and Elton Brand (+4).

Actual generational players run about +20 on average, a bit more if we discount Jordan who was not all that good until the NBA officials got involved.

Mikan N/A
Chamberlain +17 games
Abdul-Jabbar +29 games
Jordan +9 games
James +18 games

A very few other players like Earvin Johnson joined teams that were already decent to good, which limits their range here -- the Lakers were +13 with Johnson, to 60 wins. Hard to go much higher than that.

That's all it signifies though. Says very little about Wemby's potential and current value.

Says a lot about his current value, which is borderline negative with respect to winning games.

 

[msgkings322]

Didn't show any improvement, at all. In fact, showed decline until a couple late-season wins over tanking teams. And that's not "strange", it has never happened for any other alleged "generational" rookie, and not even with many who were no where near as hyped.

Orlando improved +15 games by drafting Dwight Howard. The Pelicans improved +6 games by drafting Anthony Davis -- who was still incredibly raw offensively. The Bucks improved +10 with Andrew Bogut. Joe Barry Carroll and the Warriors improved +14. Toronto and Bargnani were +20. Glenn Robinson and the Bucks improved by 14 games. Kent Benson and the Bucks were +14. Joe Smith and the Warriors were +10.

To find top picks whose teams showed no, or little, improvement, one has to go down to the level of guys like Brad Daugherty ( +2 ), and Elton Brand (+4).

Actual generational players run about +20 on average, a bit more if we discount Jordan who was not all that good until the NBA officials got involved.

Mikan N/A
Chamberlain +17 games
Abdul-Jabbar +29 games
Jordan +9 games
James +18 games

A very few other players like Earvin Johnson joined teams that were already decent to good, which limits their range here -- the Lakers were +13 with Johnson, to 60 wins. Hard to go much higher than that.



Says a lot about his current value, which is borderline negative with respect to winning games.

Yes, we can all agree Wemby has negative value today.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Yep, instead of being tied 2-2, the Lakers went up 3-1 with the series headed back to LA.

Yeah, we likely would have lost 4-3 but we would have had big momentum for game 5. They knew they had no shot to win 3 straight against that bunch though

 

[UK Cowboy]

Yep, instead of being tied 2-2, the Lakers went up 3-1 with the series headed back to LA.

As great as the Bulls were, I still don't think they could beat early Showtime. Best team ever IMO. If not for a historically great Celtics team that cost them a few titles and Magic having his career cut short, the Lakers could have won 8-10 Titles IMO

 

[tc1]

As someone who has watched hundreds of Warriors games start to finish especially in the title winning decade, I assure you that you're wrong about Curry not having an effect on his teammates success. His on court gravity was a huge factor (less so now that he's old, which shows in their mediocrity)

Gravity is irrelevant if the teammates cannot shoot at a high rate of success. Teams would just crowd Curry and beg the other guys to shoot, and profit. That didn't work, because as I said, during the Warriors' successful era, they employed a couple dozen guys who shot basically just as well as Curry. That was why it worked -- and because the league made an unannounced rule change regarding traveling out on the court, which made their offense plausible, but that's a different thread.

Also note that these players did not shoot higher percentages alongside Curry than they did playing elsewhere. Which puts paid to any notion of Curry's contribution.

But perhaps his effect on the whole sport is exaggerated per your stat above. I have to think bigs shooting 3s is somewhat attributable to him, but that's more likely about teams doing the math on expected points per shot from different parts of the floor.

Big have been able to shoot from distance for a long, long time. Bob Petit retired 20 years before Curry was born, and racked up 2 MVPs and gobs of points bombing away from outside.

Most of the bigs doing it today should not be. Guys like Anthony Davis, and his career 29.8% mark.

The difference is, once upon a time, a guy like Davis hoisting a three would've been summarily benched a while to reconsider his shot selection. Now, no one cares about efficient offense, so long as it is fun to watch.

 

[tc1]

Any scrub can come in and use a foul on Shaq. Don’t have to be big and strong to do it.

Why then do you imagine that almost every team in the league rostered three to four huge guys, most of whom were pretty unskilled?

 

[tc1]

Yes, we can all agree Wemby has negative value today.

Now finish the sentence -- "with respect to winning games". And that's been demonstrated by his very team.

 

[tc1]

As great as the Bulls were, I still don't think they could beat early Showtime. Best team ever IMO.

Fun Showtime trivia. As of 1990, there were 35 NBA MVP awards distributed. Showtime Lakers held 10 of them -- 29%.

Even today, Showtime still has 14% of all existing MVP awards.

 

[trojanfan12]

As great as the Bulls were, I still don't think they could beat early Showtime. Best team ever IMO. If not for a historically great Celtics team that cost them a few titles and Magic having his career cut short, the Lakers could have won 8-10 Titles IMO

I don't know. There maybe a season or 2 when they didn't make the finals. Like when Magic had been out due to injury and came back just before the playoffs (they lost in 1st round to the Rockets). Maybe if Magic had been able to come back sooner, they aren't rusty and win the series. It was a 3 game series back then and they lost game 3 on a crazy, last second shot by Ralph Sampson. I can still see Michael Cooper just collapsing to the floor when that thing went in. lol

Also, in 1984 when McHale clotheslined Rambis, the Lakers looked like they were going to go up 3-1 and that clothesline stopped their momentum.

They lost to the Bad Boy Pistons when they were looking to 3-peat when Magic and Byron Scott both pulled their hamstring...but I don't think they win that one even if they were healthy.

 

[tlance]

Why then do you imagine that almost every team in the league rostered three to four huge guys, most of whom were pretty unskilled?

Not just for Shaq.

Back then teams played through the center position and you needed bodies and fouls. They needed bodies to potentially play a few minutes guarding the other teams 5. Not just coming on the court to foul them.

That simply is not the case anymore.

 

[tlance]

Now finish the sentence -- "with respect to winning games". And that's been demonstrated by his very team.

No it has not.

A lot goes into winning games. Not just about 1 player ever.

Also, what makes you think the Spurs were trying to win games last year?

Last season was all about developing young players and seeing who fits with who.

You also said “worst season ever by a #1”

Let me remind you that Kwame Brown, Markelle Fultz, Anthony Bennett, Andrea Bargnani, Michael Olowokandi and Joe Barry Carroll were all top overall picks

 

[tc1]

If not for a historically great Celtics team that cost them a few titles...

How do you figure, exactly?

This is the kind of remark made by people who didn't actually watch those playoffs. The Celtics only beat the Lakers once in the Showtime era -- 1984. Showtime was 2-1 against the Celtics, winning in '85 and '87 and losing only in '84. In fact, the Celtics have only taken two series from the Los Angeles Lakers outside the Sixties -- '84 and '08.

The other teams to beat Showtime were: the Rockets twice (once in a 3-game set), the Sixers, and the Pistons.

For the first four years of Showtime, their main rival was the Sixers, who they faced in the Finals 3 times in 4 seasons. Bird was still busy choking away most playoff series at that time and would've been ringless if not for the heroics of a man named Cornbread.

 

[tc1]

Back then teams played through the center position

Who? Picking a random year, 2000, when O'Neal led the league in scoring, the only other centers in the top 20 in scoring were Alonzo Mourning and Elton Brand.

 

[tc1]

No it has not.

Over and over again, it has.

A lot goes into winning games. Not just about 1 player ever.

For generational players, 1 player makes a huge difference in the team's record. Even for just very good rookies, 1 player makes a huge difference.

Also, what makes you think the Spurs were trying to win games last year?

How much does Wembanyama suck that they need to tank multiple seasons back-to-back? They didn't even do that Duncan, one of the most overrated bigs in history.

Last season was all about developing young players and seeing who fits with who.

You say this like no other team has ever developed players. To put it mildly, that is wrong.

Also, at least half of the Spurs top 10 in minutes were veterans, despite having a few younger guys that didn't play much.

You also said “worst season ever by a #1”

Let me remind you that Kwame Brown, Markelle Fultz, Anthony Bennett, Andrea Bargnani, Michael Olowokandi and Joe Barry Carroll were all top overall picks

First of all, I qualified that statement, so read it again. Secondly, Bargnani and Carroll actually had large positive effects on their team! Which is my point. Wembanyama was worse than even guys that no one would ever suggest are great players.