The 2019-20 Cleveland Cavaliers: Exhibit A for HS Players Not to Enter the NBA Draft

[dtgold88]

Superstars imo (not future, right now):

Giannis
Kawhi
Lebron
KD
Steph
Lillard
AD
Harden

RW is borderline bc at one point he definitely was...I would vote YES still but wouldn't have a problem with either.

I'm ready to put Doncic in there right now. agree with the rest.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I'm ready to put Doncic in there right now. agree with the rest.

Not after one half of a season at playing at an extremely high level. He will be soon, maybe as early as next season.

 

[dtgold88]

Not after one half of a season at playing at an extremely high level. He will be soon, maybe as early as next season.

He's done enough for me to be sure...but I get waiting.

 

[msgkings322]

you aren't so what do you think. Kyrie/Love that far behind Wade/Bosh? Miami's depth better?

Yeah just the stars are better before you even get into the depth. Including defense, which matters in the playoffs, Wade >> Kyrie and Bosh >> Love

Then throw in Ray Allen. Not to mention a better coach

 

[tlance]

I think something that got forgotten here (not by you as you weren't involved in original discussion) was we were talking about the worth of a team's #2. Does one even need to be a superstar to be among the top #2s in the game?

I think your number is closer at 6-7 than 10-15, though. at least when you get closer to 15. I would say 10 might be the max.

Here is the thing though.

I believe being a superstar is more than just play on the court. Larry, Magic and Michael invented the term. Superstars are players whose light shines so bright that fans are drawn to them. Obviously elite play is a prerequisite. You have to be the best of the best.

But to be a true superstar you have to really stand out from the crowd of great players. Very few #2s can do that. In fact, I am not sure any #2s can. It is why I believe Scottie Pippen was a top 5 player in the league at one point. But never really a superstar because he played in MJ’s shadow.

The dynamic was different in GS. Curry and KD were more co-stars. Yes, KD shined a little brighter. Same in Miami with D Wade and LeBron.

Kyrie was never even close to that level in Cleveland. Very good #2. By definition, that is not a superstar.

 

[tlance]

you aren't so what do you think. Kyrie/Love that far behind Wade/Bosh? Miami's depth better?

Yes.

Wade was the 2nd best player in the league when they teamed up.

Large gap between 2nd best player in the league and 15th best or whatever Kyrie was. M

Not close.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Here is the thing though.

I believe being a superstar is more than just play on the court. Larry, Magic and Michael invented the term. Superstars are players whose light shines so bright that fans are drawn to them. Obviously elite play is a prerequisite. You have to be the best of the best.

But to be a true superstar you have to really stand out from the crowd of great players. Very few #2s can do that. In fact, I am not sure any #2s can. It is why I believe Scottie Pippen was a top 5 player in the league at one point. But never really a superstar because he played in MJ’s shadow.

The dynamic was different in GS. Curry and KD were more co-stars. Yes, KD shined a little brighter. Same in Miami with D Wade and LeBron.

Kyrie was never even close to that level in Cleveland. Very good #2. By definition, that is not a superstar.

I think if Kyrie would have played on Boston, led a nice playoff run while dominated he was on his way to be a superstar, kinda like Damian, but so far haven't seen it from him. I believe he can be a #1 but I don't think that team will be that successful...he is now the #2 if KD fully recovers like we anticipate.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah just the stars are better before you even get into the depth. Including defense, which matters in the playoffs, Wade >> Kyrie and Bosh >> Love

Then throw in Ray Allen. Not to mention a better coach

Despite being a nutjob I think Kyrie closer to Wade than you are thinking. Offense matters, too, which keeps Love and Bosh closer. Love's shooting also a nice complement for that Lebron fellow.

Hopefully we can agree they had Allen solely for his shooting prowess at 38 years old (and older). By that time he was Kyle Korver, though Korver was a better shooter for the Cavs than Allen was Miami.

For the firepower those teams have I think TT might have been the most valuable role player for either team. Chalmers was probably their top role player.

 

[dtgold88]

Here is the thing though.

I believe being a superstar is more than just play on the court. Larry, Magic and Michael invented the term. Superstars are players whose light shines so bright that fans are drawn to them. Obviously elite play is a prerequisite. You have to be the best of the best.

But to be a true superstar you have to really stand out from the crowd of great players. Very few #2s can do that. In fact, I am not sure any #2s can. It is why I believe Scottie Pippen was a top 5 player in the league at one point. But never really a superstar because he played in MJ’s shadow.

The dynamic was different in GS. Curry and KD were more co-stars. Yes, KD shined a little brighter. Same in Miami with D Wade and LeBron.

Kyrie was never even close to that level in Cleveland. Very good #2. By definition, that is not a superstar.

when it comes to talent on court Kyrie probably meant as much and maybe more to Cavs than Wade as he could do everything Wade could on offense and was far more feared from the outside...which is kind of helpful with Lebron.

"never close to that level" is absurd...or extreme, if you prefer.

 

[dtgold88]

Yes.

Wade was the 2nd best player in the league when they teamed up.

Large gap between 2nd best player in the league and 15th best or whatever Kyrie was. M

Not close.

2nd best player in the league? Debatable, as did Miami ever go anywhere without Shaq or Lebron helping out Wade? Or even Bosh? Kyrie never had a player here like that to know what he could do until Lebron arrived.

As usual, closer than you think.

 

[dtgold88]

I think if Kyrie would have played on Boston, led a nice playoff run while dominated he was on his way to be a superstar, kinda like Damian, but so far haven't seen it from him. I believe he can be a #1 but I don't think that team will be that successful...he is now the #2 if KD fully recovers like we anticipate.

On that I agree. Maybe I forgot something, but doesn't seem like Wade ever led a team that far as a clear #1 either (no Shaq or Lebron). Do recall a 48 win season with Bosh, but when did Kyrie ever have a year here pre Lebron with a teammate even close to Bosh's level let alone prime Shaq.

 

[msgkings322]

Despite being a nutjob I think Kyrie closer to Wade than you are thinking. Offense matters, too, which keeps Love and Bosh closer. Love's shooting also a nice complement for that Lebron fellow.

Hopefully we can agree they had Allen solely for his shooting prowess at 38 years old (and older). By that time he was Kyle Korver, though Korver was a better shooter for the Cavs than Allen was Miami.

For the firepower those teams have I think TT might have been the most valuable role player for either team. Chalmers was probably their top role player.

Bosh was no slouch on offense, nor was Wade. Sorry dude those guys were better.

 

[dtgold88]

Bosh was no slouch on offense, nor was Wade. Sorry dude those guys were better.

ok. As I said in original comment I could see thinking either is better. Far better? Not so sure I'm buying that and an argument could be made neither is better.

Also think a very strong argument can be made Cavs had better role players. 38-39 year old Ray Allen was nothing special. I'd say Chalmers was their best role player.

 

[msgkings322]

ok. As I said in original comment I could see thinking either is better. Far better? Not so sure I'm buying that and an argument could be made neither is better.

Also think a very strong argument can be made Cavs had better role players. 38-39 year old Ray Allen was nothing special. I'd say Chalmers was their best role player.

Sure maybe. But still, overall, Heatles > LeBron Cavs. The three best players the Heat are better than the big three on the Cavs (or the same, LeBron). Stars are what matter, way more than depth. So maybe the Cavs were a little better on offense, the Heat were way better on defense. It's not really close.

 

[dtgold88]

Sure maybe. But still, overall, Heatles > LeBron Cavs. The three best players the Heat are better than the big three on the Cavs (or the same, LeBron). Stars are what matter, way more than depth. So maybe the Cavs were a little better on offense, the Heat were way better on defense. It's not really close.

I'd say case can be made Cavs on O have similar advantage to Miami on D. could see the other side, too. Only disagreement is the extreme "not really close".

 

[Shanemansj13]

09-10 Wade - 27 ppg 7 apg 5 rpg 1.2 spg - 5th in the NBA in scoring and arguably a top 3 player in the NBA - Kobe and Lebron, 1 & 2.
ALL-NBA - 1st
ALL-DEFENSIVE - 2nd

13-14 Kyrie - 21 ppg 6 apg 4 rpg 1.5 spg

09-10 Bosh - 24 ppg 11 rpg - 12th in MVP voting - 40 win Toronto team

13-14 Love - 26 ppg 13 rpg 5 apg - 11th in MVP voting - 40 win Minny team
ALL NBA - 2nd


Wade was a much better player than Kyrie when Lebron joined them both.
Love was a better player than Bosh by a small margin imo when they joined Lebron.

 

[tlance]

ok. As I said in original comment I could see thinking either is better. Far better? Not so sure I'm buying that and an argument could be made neither is better.

Also think a very strong argument can be made Cavs had better role players. 38-39 year old Ray Allen was nothing special. I'd say Chalmers was their best role player.

Yes. Far better.

Wade was an elite 2 way player in his prime. When they teamed up, the top 3 players in the NBA were:

1) LeBron
2) Wade or Kobe

And I am not even sure anyone else even belonged in the conversation. Wade was a dominant force. Kyrie at his best couldn’t get to that level because Wade’s offense was comparable and he was an elite defender on top.

AND Wade wasn’t batshit crazy. He was always a great teammate whether he was top dog or a role player in his later years.

Not close at all.

 

[tlance]

09-10 Wade - 27 ppg 7 apg 5 rpg 1.2 spg - 5th in the NBA in scoring and arguably a top 3 player in the NBA - Kobe and Lebron, 1 & 2.
ALL-NBA - 1st
ALL-DEFENSIVE - 2nd

13-14 Kyrie - 21 ppg 6 apg 4 rpg 1.5 spg

09-10 Bosh - 24 ppg 11 rpg - 12th in MVP voting - 40 win Toronto team

13-14 Love - 26 ppg 13 rpg 5 apg - 11th in MVP voting - 40 win Minny team
ALL NBA - 2nd


Wade was a much better player than Kyrie when Lebron joined them both.
Love was a better player than Bosh by a small margin imo when they joined Lebron.

Great post. I do disagree with the last part though. I don’t think Love was better than Bosh. He may have had more status because of the stat lines he posted in Minnesota. But Bosh was the better player due to all around contribution.

 

[tlance]

On that I agree. Maybe I forgot something, but doesn't seem like Wade ever led a team that far as a clear #1 either (no Shaq or Lebron). Do recall a 48 win season with Bosh, but when did Kyrie ever have a year here pre Lebron with a teammate even close to Bosh's level let alone prime Shaq.

Wade was the clear number 1 on that first title team with Shaq. Shaq even admits it.

In 2011, the Heat failed because Wade and LeBron deferred to each other too much trying not to ruffle feathers.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Great post. I do disagree with the last part though. I don’t think Love was better than Bosh. He may have had more status because of the stat lines he posted in Minnesota. But Bosh was the better player due to all around contribution.

Either way, it was pretty close. If Bosh was better it was very slim and it was mainly due to Bosh's defensive ability over Love's. Love meant just as much, maybe more, to his team than Bosh. Minny was awful though, he had nothing around him.