Zeke and Cowboys in trouble again

[PhoenixEagles1]

I'm not saying that the NFLPA is saying it.

Yes, the NFLPA is saying the agents cant make money off of CBA benefits which I take as the players pensions, annuities and life insurance.

 

[Schmoopy1000]

THats really unfair. Im willing to listen but did you listen to my point. CBA benefits are not their salary.

Sure.
which is why if you use multiple things (links) to finish painting your picture it might be a bit clearer.
Because hell. if any of us could find one place to get the direct answer this conversation would have ended 3 posts in LOL

But once you get into your listen to this one person. You are done listening to anyone else (unless they happen to agree with you) Which is where you are at in this conversation.

This really isnt meant to be me talking shit.
This is my experience debating with you.
manster wants to go step by step with you to make something more clear for you.
You wont be listening to him.

just trying to save you guys time is all.

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

Sure.
which is why if you use multiple things (links) to finish painting your picture it might be a bit clearer.
Because hell. if any of us could find one place to get the direct answer this conversation would have ended 3 posts in LOL

But once you get into your listen to this one person. You are done listening to anyone else (unless they happen to agree with you) Which is where you are at in this conversation.

This really isnt meant to be me talking shit.
This is my experience debating with you.
manster wants to go step by step with you to make something more clear for you.
You wont be listening to him.

just trying to save you guys time is all.

Ill totally listen to him. I dont know why you say this. The only reason I asked Jarntt is because I think he is a contract lawyer. I also think I provided some very valuable information. Ill answer his questions. I dont know where any of this comes from. Maybe I am exasperating because I wont fold easily. That I understand... but to say I wont listen or answer his questions is wrong. In fact I asked you a question that you ignored. I think CBA Benefits are actual CBA benefits like Pensions, Life Insurance. I think where Manster is confused is he think thats saying they cant profit on all things CBA but it DOES NOT say that. It says "Benefits".

Now Im not trying to talk shit but I think you realized I am right and you are hurling accusations at me and ignoring what CBA benefits are. Go google it yourself. NFL CBA BENEFITS.

 

[Schmoopy1000]

Yes, the NFLPA is saying the agents cant make money off of CBA benefits which I take as the players pensions, annuities and life insurance.

there is no one else involved in the 5th year option but the CBA. Cant talk payment plans voiding anything nothing. the Agent has zero to do with it.
He has no say in whether it is added or not even. it is already a thing. Which is why he can only negotiate a 4 yr deal. (of the 5 year contract) Really does sound like word play on your part right now.
Why would the NFLPA (who represents the player) want an agent to take money from the player who is forced into a 5th year of a contract that the agent has no say in? the NFLPA should be pissed if the agent is getting a portion of the 5th yr option they set up with the player getting no say in matter.

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

there is no one else involved in the 5th year option but the CBA. Cant talk payment plans voiding anything nothing. the Agent has zero to do with it.
He has no say in whether it is added or not even. it is already a thing. Which is why he can only negotiate a 4 yr deal. (of the 5 year contract) Really does sound like word play on your part right now.
Why would the NFLPA (who represents the player) want an agent to take money from the player who is forced into a 5th year of a contract that the agent has no say in? the NFLPA should be pissed if the agent is getting a portion of the 5th yr option they set up with the player getting no say in matter.

The agent doesnt have anything to do with what the CBA salary is. THats true. But that doesnt mean they dont get paid for their players earnings.

How does it sound like "word play on my part". I dont get that. I just googled CBA benefits and it has NOTHING to do with salary. I said, "ooooooh, i think they are trying to say the agent cant profit off of CBA benefits". And I think that makes a ton of sense.

Maybe you think it isnt fair the agent gets paid for something he didnt negotiate but that doesnt mean they dont get paid. Again, I was 50-50 because I was confused why it said CBA benefits. So I googled it and it made sense to me. You saying Im totally out of line and completely wrong. Or are you just mad cause I think Im right?

 

[Schmoopy1000]

Ill totally listen to him. I dont know why you say this. The only reason I asked Jarntt is because I think he is a contract lawyer. I also think I provided some very valuable information. Ill answer his questions. I dont know where any of this comes from. Maybe I am exasperating because I wont fold easily. That I understand... but to say I wont listen or answer his questions is wrong. In fact I asked you a question that you ignored. I think CBA Benefits are actual CBA benefits like Pensions, Life Insurance. I think where Manster is confused is he think thats saying they cant profit on all things CBA but it DOES NOT say that. It says "Benefits".

Now Im not trying to talk shit but I think you realized I am right and you are hurling accusations at me and ignoring what CBA benefits are. Go google it yourself. NFL CBA BENEFITS.

here is a copy & paste

Every player selected in the first round of the NFL Draft will automatically have a fifth-year team option added into his contract. This option cannot be separately attached to the player contract.

The option allows a team to retain a player’s rights for five years rather than four, which is the bonus of selecting a player in the first round. In order to extend the contract, the team must inform the player during the period after the last regular season game of the player’s third contract year and May 3 of the next League Year (Art. 7, Sec. 7, (a), 31).

The fifth-year option is non-negotiable, and the non-compensation terms from a player’s rookie contract will also be included in the fifth-year option.

Now I will add in the example with the language from earlier tonight.
& I'll highlight it.

yes. Foles had a 20 mil. option year with the eagles correct?
If he & the team exercised that option. the Agent would get his cut of the 20 mil.

Rookie contract option year is a CBA thing. So the "term compensation shall not include ....... "

That how I read it.

you can go back up & read the full thing if you wish. but this should give you the gist.

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

here is a copy & paste

Every player selected in the first round of the NFL Draft will automatically have a fifth-year team option added into his contract. This option cannot be separately attached to the player contract.

The option allows a team to retain a player’s rights for five years rather than four, which is the bonus of selecting a player in the first round. In order to extend the contract, the team must inform the player during the period after the last regular season game of the player’s third contract year and May 3 of the next League Year (Art. 7, Sec. 7, (a), 31).

The fifth-year option is non-negotiable, and the non-compensation terms from a player’s rookie contract will also be included in the fifth-year option.

Now I will add in the example with the language from earlier tonight.
& I'll highlight it.

you can go back up & read the full thing if you wish. but this should give you the gist.

Not really following you brother. Sorry. What are you trying to illustrate about the "non compensation terms"?

 

[Schmoopy1000]

Not really following you brother. Sorry. What are you trying to illustrate about the "non compensation terms"?

still looking to see if there is something to explain it better for ya.

 

[PhoenixEagles1]

still looking to see if there is something to explain it better for ya.

Cool. Ill get back to you tomorrow. Estoy cansada.

 

[Manster7588]

YES

OK, now do agents do any work on the 5th year option?

 

[Manster7588]

Yes, the NFLPA is saying the agents cant make money off of CBA benefits which I take as the players pensions, annuities and life insurance.

Why would an agent make money off of something he didn't work on?

 

[SteelersPride]

Would be a good thread... who is the media hyping up for your team?

Ours is Goedert and both the 2nd round picks. Saw one were the writer (ex player) is saying the WR is doing things he’s never saw a player at his size do ever.

-Bush
-Diontae Johnson
-Terrell Edmunds
-BJ Finney
-Cam sutton
-Ola Odeniyi
-Kameron Kelly

some suprises

 

[jarntt]

You guys stayed up until 4 in the morning arguing this?

First off, while I am of course a genius (haha), stop @ing me as if I am an expert on NFL contracts or have any inside info about any of this and especially since you only want me to hear my opinion if I agree with you. I am also not a contract lawyer.

I'm just reading what is out there and interpreting it just like you. It is my opinion and only an opinion until we see something definitive. But, How would the agent possibly not get paid? Agent is a 365 day per year job and he is representing the player when the contract is signed and when the option is executed and all the way through the option year. If he didn't get his cut you could be sure every agent would be trying to get their clients to hold out like Zeke is. And for those of you who think the rookie contract is a 5 year contract how could you then turn around and state he doesn't get paid when your point is it is the same contract? Further, the clauses you posted seem to state he does indeed get paid from my interpretation.

You need to read the language in it's entirety and not pick out individual clauses on these things, but just looking at what you guys posted this appears to summarize the topic, but I am not reading 45 pages about something I don't care about and I'd be willing to bet it is covered multiple times throughout the document and how do we know this is even an Official document? This also only seems to set a maximum. It infers the player and agent could come up with terms of their own which lessen the agents fee and I suspect which compensation specifically he gets a fee on. (Does Bobby Bonilla's agent still get a fee on those million dollar payments he receives for 10 more years? Probably but who knows) For example I read something the other day where one of the top agents (I think Rosenhaus?) had a financial institution he was associated with and he only charged a 1% agent fee if the players agreed to invest with that institution.

"B. Contract Advisor’s Compensation (1) The maximum fee which may be charged or collected by a Contract Advisor shall be three percent (3%) of the “compensation” (as defined within this Section) received by the player in each playing season covered by the contract negotiated by the Contract Advisor, except as follows: "

(3) As used in this Section 4(B), the term “compensation” shall be deemed to include only salaries, signing bonuses, reporting bonuses, roster bonuses, Practice Squad salary in excess of the minimum Practice Squad salary specified in Article 33 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and any performance incentives earned by the player during the term of the contract (including any option year) negotiated by the Contract Advisor. For example, and without limitation, the term compensation shall not include any “honor” incentive bonuses (e.g., ALL PRO, PRO BOWL, Rookie of the Year), or any collectively bargained benefits or other payments provided for in the player’s individual contract.

Where you are hung up "collectively bargained benefits" I doubt they are referring to the 5th year option as a "benefit". That is big enough that it would be specifically mentioned. It is a "catch all" so they don't have to list every possible compensation benefit a player may receive. I assume they are referring to things like Performance based pay like money younger players receive (Dak) that gives bonuses to players (usually late round picks or UFDAs) that perform at a level higher than their compensation. These payments do not go against the cap and are thus treated differently. It also likely refers to things like playoff and Super Bowl shares or miscellaneous things that arise and probably benefits like health benefits and training camp per diems. The reason they mention the transition tag specifically and not 5th year option is likely because the tag becomes a new contract but when any option is executed it then becomes part of the original contact that is signed and all language in that original contact is pertinent to the option years as well. Again it seems likely to me that the agent is paid for the 5th year option based on the above and on common sense, but I don't know. I'm sure a Google search could find the answer. But, I'm bored, but not that bored...

 

[jarntt]

-Bush
-Diontae Johnson
-Terrell Edmunds
-BJ Finney
-Cam sutton
-Ola Odeniyi
-Kameron Kelly

some suprises

I'd say mostly the UDFA WRs and in particular Jon'vea Johnson. I think one of these young speedsters makes the 53 and probably two make the PS. But every year these young WRs are hyped. I'll also say Dorance Armstrong. He is getting tons of snaps because Tank is out and Gregory is suspended.

 

[Schmoopy1000]

You guys stayed up until 4 in the morning arguing this?

First off, while I am of course a genius (haha), stop @ing me as if I am an expert on NFL contracts or have any inside info about any of this and especially since you only want me to hear my opinion if I agree with you. I am also not a contract lawyer.

I'm just reading what is out there and interpreting it just like you. It is my opinion and only an opinion until we see something definitive. But, How would the agent possibly not get paid? Agent is a 365 day per year job and he is representing the player when the contract is signed and when the option is executed and all the way through the option year. If he didn't get his cut you could be sure every agent would be trying to get their clients to hold out like Zeke is. And for those of you who think the rookie contract is a 5 year contract how could you then turn around and state he doesn't get paid when your point is it is the same contract? Further, the clauses you posted seem to state he does indeed get paid from my interpretation.

You need to read the language in it's entirety and not pick out individual clauses on these things, but just looking at what you guys posted this appears to summarize the topic, but I am not reading 45 pages about something I don't care about and I'd be willing to bet it is covered multiple times throughout the document and how do we know this is even an Official document? This also only seems to set a maximum. It infers the player and agent could come up with terms of their own which lessen the agents fee and I suspect which compensation specifically he gets a fee on. (Does Bobby Bonilla's agent still get a fee on those million dollar payments he receives for 10 more years? Probably but who knows) For example I read something the other day where one of the top agents (I think Rosenhaus?) had a financial institution he was associated with and he only charged a 1% agent fee if the players agreed to invest with that institution.

"B. Contract Advisor’s Compensation (1) The maximum fee which may be charged or collected by a Contract Advisor shall be three percent (3%) of the “compensation” (as defined within this Section) received by the player in each playing season covered by the contract negotiated by the Contract Advisor, except as follows: "

(3) As used in this Section 4(B), the term “compensation” shall be deemed to include only salaries, signing bonuses, reporting bonuses, roster bonuses, Practice Squad salary in excess of the minimum Practice Squad salary specified in Article 33 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and any performance incentives earned by the player during the term of the contract (including any option year) negotiated by the Contract Advisor. For example, and without limitation, the term compensation shall not include any “honor” incentive bonuses (e.g., ALL PRO, PRO BOWL, Rookie of the Year), or any collectively bargained benefits or other payments provided for in the player’s individual contract.

Where you are hung up "collectively bargained benefits" I doubt they are referring to the 5th year option as a "benefit". That is big enough that it would be specifically mentioned. It is a "catch all" so they don't have to list every possible compensation benefit a player may receive. I assume they are referring to things like Performance based pay like money younger players receive (Dak) that gives bonuses to players (usually late round picks or UFDAs) that perform at a level higher than their compensation. These payments do not go against the cap and are thus treated differently. It also likely refers to things like playoff and Super Bowl shares or miscellaneous things that arise and probably benefits like health benefits and training camp per diems. The reason they mention the transition tag specifically and not 5th year option is likely because the tag becomes a new contract but when any option is executed it then becomes part of the original contact that is signed and all language in that original contact is pertinent to the option years as well. Again it seems likely to me that the agent is paid for the 5th year option based on the above and on common sense, but I don't know. I'm sure a Google search could find the answer. But, I'm bored, but not that bored...

I couldnt find anything other that what you have written here, on google. but the 5th year is not negotiated by said advisor.
BTW we are both on the left coast so it wasnt 4 in the morning LOL.

 

[jarntt]

I couldnt find anything other that what you have written here, on google. but the 5th year is not negotiated by said advisor.
BTW we are both on the left coast so it wasnt 4 in the morning LOL.

I think you are confusing the intent of language. The agent doesn't play an active role of negotiating the option year specifically at the time the team executes the option year but you have to remember this language is for every single NFL contract not just for 1st round draft picks on their first contract. If it covered every situation specifically it would be a thousand pages. He also doesn't negotiate the salary because it is slotted but he gets his fee on that. I don't get how you can say both that the original contract is a 5 year contract and at the same time that he won't receive his fee for the 5th year. Take a step back and just think about what you think happens without trying to interpret the language that someone found. Does it make any sense at all that he doesn't get the fee? Why does he get a fee for a franchise tag and not this? He does nothing on the franchise tag which is a separate contract other than advise his client to sign it or not. It is an option year like any other option year. It just has a preset salary.

 

[Manster7588]

You guys stayed up until 4 in the morning arguing this?

First off, while I am of course a genius (haha), stop @ing me as if I am an expert on NFL contracts or have any inside info about any of this and especially since you only want me to hear my opinion if I agree with you. I am also not a contract lawyer.

I'm just reading what is out there and interpreting it just like you. It is my opinion and only an opinion until we see something definitive. But, How would the agent possibly not get paid? Agent is a 365 day per year job and he is representing the player when the contract is signed and when the option is executed and all the way through the option year. If he didn't get his cut you could be sure every agent would be trying to get their clients to hold out like Zeke is. And for those of you who think the rookie contract is a 5 year contract how could you then turn around and state he doesn't get paid when your point is it is the same contract? Further, the clauses you posted seem to state he does indeed get paid from my interpretation.

You need to read the language in it's entirety and not pick out individual clauses on these things, but just looking at what you guys posted this appears to summarize the topic, but I am not reading 45 pages about something I don't care about and I'd be willing to bet it is covered multiple times throughout the document and how do we know this is even an Official document? This also only seems to set a maximum. It infers the player and agent could come up with terms of their own which lessen the agents fee and I suspect which compensation specifically he gets a fee on. (Does Bobby Bonilla's agent still get a fee on those million dollar payments he receives for 10 more years? Probably but who knows) For example I read something the other day where one of the top agents (I think Rosenhaus?) had a financial institution he was associated with and he only charged a 1% agent fee if the players agreed to invest with that institution.

"B. Contract Advisor’s Compensation (1) The maximum fee which may be charged or collected by a Contract Advisor shall be three percent (3%) of the “compensation” (as defined within this Section) received by the player in each playing season covered by the contract negotiated by the Contract Advisor, except as follows: "

(3) As used in this Section 4(B), the term “compensation” shall be deemed to include only salaries, signing bonuses, reporting bonuses, roster bonuses, Practice Squad salary in excess of the minimum Practice Squad salary specified in Article 33 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and any performance incentives earned by the player during the term of the contract (including any option year) negotiated by the Contract Advisor. For example, and without limitation, the term compensation shall not include any “honor” incentive bonuses (e.g., ALL PRO, PRO BOWL, Rookie of the Year), or any collectively bargained benefits or other payments provided for in the player’s individual contract.

Where you are hung up "collectively bargained benefits" I doubt they are referring to the 5th year option as a "benefit". That is big enough that it would be specifically mentioned. It is a "catch all" so they don't have to list every possible compensation benefit a player may receive. I assume they are referring to things like Performance based pay like money younger players receive (Dak) that gives bonuses to players (usually late round picks or UFDAs) that perform at a level higher than their compensation. These payments do not go against the cap and are thus treated differently. It also likely refers to things like playoff and Super Bowl shares or miscellaneous things that arise and probably benefits like health benefits and training camp per diems. The reason they mention the transition tag specifically and not 5th year option is likely because the tag becomes a new contract but when any option is executed it then becomes part of the original contact that is signed and all language in that original contact is pertinent to the option years as well. Again it seems likely to me that the agent is paid for the 5th year option based on the above and on common sense, but I don't know. I'm sure a Google search could find the answer. But, I'm bored, but not that bored...

You wrote a lot and bolded OPTION, but just like PE, you missed this.

the term compensation shall not include any “honor” incentive bonuses (e.g., ALL PRO, PRO BOWL, Rookie of the Year), or any collectively bargained benefits or other payments provided for in the player’s individual contract.

Therefore, with the 5th year option being mandatory per the CBA and not negotiable by the player or agent said player cannot collect money on it.

 

[SteelersPride]

I'd say mostly the UDFA WRs and in particular Jon'vea Johnson. I think one of these young speedsters makes the 53 and probably two make the PS. But every year these young WRs are hyped. I'll also say Dorance Armstrong. He is getting tons of snaps because Tank is out and Gregory is suspended.

yeah i mean devin bush you knew we would hype, diontae johnson was the 3rd round draft suprise, that as people looked at more though well maybe this isnt a reach. Maybe hes an AB clone with clean routes. Hes been very good.
Ola Odeniyi made some noise at camp last year at LB. Hes been a terror, the talk of camp, and every radio show. Hes made this team, and is making bud dupree expendable after this year.
Terrell edmunds played the 6th most defensive snaps in the nfl last year as a rookie. He looks amazing this year.
Cam sutton has looked very good at CB and we have no CB"s sooooooo. BJ finney is having a monster camp at guard

 

[jarntt]

You wrote a lot and bolded OPTION, but just like PE, you missed this.

the term compensation shall not include any “honor” incentive bonuses (e.g., ALL PRO, PRO BOWL, Rookie of the Year), or any collectively bargained benefits or other payments provided for in the player’s individual contract.

Therefore, with the 5th year option being mandatory per the CBA and not negotiable by the player or agent said player cannot collect money on it.

No, I didn't miss it at all. Did you read what I wrote? I addressed both the 5th year option and that clause.

The odds of that clause being meant to include the 5th year option for 1st round rookie contracts is almost nil. Would you refer to a 5th year option as a collectively bargained benefit? That doesn't really make sense

 

[Schmoopy1000]

I think you are confusing the intent of language. The agent doesn't play an active role of negotiating the option year specifically at the time the team executes the option year but you have to remember this language is for every single NFL contract not just for 1st round draft picks on their first contract. If it covered every situation specifically it would be a thousand pages. He also doesn't negotiate the salary because it is slotted but he gets his fee on that. I don't get how you can say both that the original contract is a 5 year contract and at the same time that he won't receive his fee for the 5th year. Take a step back and just think about what you think happens without trying to interpret the language that someone found. Does it make any sense at all that he doesn't get the fee? Why does he get a fee for a franchise tag and not this? He does nothing on the franchise tag which is a separate contract other than advise his client to sign it or not. It is an option year like any other option year. It just has a preset salary.

Well they do do things on a Franchise tag. They advise their client heavily in a lot of cases. Bell sat out.
Jimmy Graham tried to be considered a WR.
Clowney is disputing if he is a DE or OLB.
Again if you read what the agent will do for the player on a rookie contract where the #'s are pretty much set. Still negotiates, when the player will get paid his bonuses & what not (really not gonna list all of it here)
5th year option isnt fully guaranteed until the start of the 5th year. The money & pay structure is set in stone. Not like all the different types of tags.