WTF Pace

[noonthirtyjoe]

Why do you keep saying that? The fact a trade was facilitated days before his all but guaranteed release is pretty amazing. They swapped their 5th round pick for the Bears 7th, and for cap purposes he is off the books completely. He wasnt staying. Considering the timing, what transpired couldnt have turned out any better.

His all but guaranteed release? He was'nt staying?? You got info I don't? His cap number made him even more worth keeping. I do hold this move against Pace because it was a bad one in every way. I give him credit when it's do. And I hold him accountable for both good and bad moves. We could have used that first pick on a defender instead of a WR who can't help us. FKN waste of a first pick. I like the guy but with Cutler he will be a waste of talent. And No I don't believe the next QB will be any good either, I'm a Bears fan there is no such thing as a good QB. Thier a myth.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

Good solid draft. Solid coaching staff. Bad FA moves. Cutler still here. BM gone for no return. I'm hopeful but not sold yet.

I sort of think there just weren't takers on Cutler. ((( OK that could be it))) If White is as good as they say, you will forget about Marshall pretty quick, and White is 10 years younger and a few million cheaper.((( White can't succeed without better QB play))) Plus if that safety we drafted with the pick we got from the Jets works out, that's a bonus.

I think he did OK in FA. Not great, but not bad. I'm not really a fan of the Rolle signing, but it is what it is. In any case, I would take a good drafting GM over a FA wizard any day of the week. Good drafting solves many ills.[/QUOTE] ((( The only guy in FA that sparks my interest is McPhee and he shined in a part time roll. Them part time hero's don't cut the mustard when moved to a starter more often then not.)))

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

His all but guaranteed release? He was'nt staying?? You got info I don't? His cap number made him even more worth keeping. I do hold this move against Pace because it was a bad one in every way. I give him credit when it's do. And I hold him accountable for both good and bad moves. We could have used that first pick on a defender instead of a WR who can't help us. FKN waste of a first pick. I like the guy but with Cutler he will be a waste of talent. And No I don't believe the next QB will be any good either, I'm a Bears fan there is no such thing as a good QB. Thier a myth.

I don't know anything either, but I think blh has a point. I think his release was pretty likely. Look, it's obvious that something bothered team management enough to trade him away for a small draft upgrade even though we still eat most of his cap hit. THAT much is not disputable. What that was exactly....something behind the scene, something Fox didn't like, the perceived sliding in Marshall's play...we in the public do not know and can only speculate. But it's quite clear that SOMETHING pushed the Bears to dump him. It wasn't like they just decided to dump a starting WR and have to use a 1st round draft pick on the replacement because they are doddering idiots. And Noon, I gotta say that you are kind of talking as though that's what they did. I just don't think that's the case.

If all goes well, White will be here long after Cutler. And if we actually have a guy who knows how to run a scouting department and use it properly in drafting, we might even get a real QB here too. You might be surprised some day Noon.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

You probably are right Cali, I'm sure there is more to it then we know. Still think it could have been handled better and we could have got more in return. I've seen every Bear game from 1977 to now and Cutler truly is the best we have had. I'm sure by this point the odds are in our favor to land a top QB one day soon. Hey if the Cubs can win a world series then we can find a real QB. oh wait. shit.

 

[wood20ks]

You probably are right Cali, I'm sure there is more to it then we know. Still think it could have been handled better and we could have got more in return. I've seen every Bear game from 1977 to now and Cutler truly is the best we have had. I'm sure by this point the odds are in our favor to land a top QB one day soon. Hey if the Cubs can win a world series then we can find a real QB. oh wait. shit.

Joe...........I`ve seen every bear from 1975 on,and I gotta disagree with our HOF`er qb Cutler,McMahon was the better qb.....sorry

Mcmahon had more leadership and passion in his little pinky than Cuitler in his whole body.

The Thursday night game vs the Vikings in 85 is a defining moment for Jimmy Mac.Bears losing in the 3rd qtr,McMahon came in for Fuller and his first pass was a 70 yd td pass to gault.Next series,first play and ? yd pass to McKinnon..........
There is nothing that I can remember about Cutler that actually sticks in my mind.......nothing.

 

[noonthirtyjoe]

Joe...........I`ve seen every bear from 1975 on,and I gotta disagree with our HOF`er qb Cutler,McMahon was the better qb.....sorry

Mcmahon had more leadership and passion in his little pinky than Cuitler in his whole body.

The Thursday night game vs the Vikings in 85 is a defining moment for Jimmy Mac.Bears losing in the 3rd qtr,McMahon came in for Fuller and his first pass was a 70 yd td pass to gault.Next series,first play and ? yd pass to McKinnon..........
There is nothing that I can remember about Cutler that actually sticks in my mind.......nothing.

I get what you are saying and agree that Jimmy was better but Jimmy did not play enough to count. He was the man, what little he played. Put him in Cutlers body = the QB we want. Jimmy screwed us too, could have won multiple or more if he could have stayed healthy. Cutler is bigger stronger and has a better arm. Jimmy had everything else, all the intangibles Cutler lacks. It was a tough call for me. Cutler won based on owning the records.

 

[JoeyTourettes]

Yeah... didn't mean for it to come off like that...and one rookie season doesn't a draft make for Emery's picks. Just thought that was interesting. I really do like Pace's picks it was really BPA. I can't really say any of them were reaches or fliers. We could say that about a lot of the picks by past 2 GM's we've had.

We need to double check that defensive roster- it's changed so much- I completely forgot about the other CB they picked up...Allen Ball? Experienced. And we have SOoooo many 4-3 DE's converting to 3-4 OLB plus the new guys they got. It's going to be an interesting camp.

 

[JoeyTourettes]

If all goes well, White will be here long after Cutler. And if we actually have a guy who knows how to run a scouting department and use it properly in drafting, we might even get a real QB here too. You might be surprised some day Noon.

Wait- "IF ALL GOES WELL" Your definition of "going well" is waiting another 2-3 years to succeed? What a stupid ass thing to want to happen. "IF ALL GOES WELL" Jay Cutler plays like he's capable, meatball fans stop blaming every fucking thing on him and grow up. AND WANT HIM TO PLAY WELL... and not simply be resigned to replacing him and hoping for the next best thing. Get over the hating him and HOPE "ALL GOES WELL" with the fucking QB you have! It's pissing in the wind.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Wait- "IF ALL GOES WELL" Your definition of "going well" is waiting another 2-3 years to succeed? What a stupid ass thing to want to happen. "IF ALL GOES WELL" Jay Cutler plays like he's capable, meatball fans stop blaming every fucking thing on him and grow up. AND WANT HIM TO PLAY WELL... and not simply be resigned to replacing him and hoping for the next best thing. Get over the hating him and HOPE "ALL GOES WELL" with the fucking QB you have! It's pissing in the wind.

Oh, sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that the obvious would be obvious. Very sloppy of me. Here, I fixed it for you:

If all goes well, assuming of course that the impossible fantasy that could take over one's mind after too much laying around in your futon starting at your #6 poster doesn't come true, where a 10th year quarterback suddenly morphs into something he's never been (which is to say the mirage projection many have seen but few still cling to), and short circuits the team's lengthy and necessary multiyear rebuilding process and takes us to Super Bowl nirvana, yes, assuming this deranged daydream doesn't happen, White will be here long after Cutler.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

I get what you are saying and agree that Jimmy was better but Jimmy did not play enough to count. He was the man, what little he played. Put him in Cutlers body = the QB we want. Jimmy screwed us too, could have won multiple or more if he could have stayed healthy. Cutler is bigger stronger and has a better arm. Jimmy had everything else, all the intangibles Cutler lacks. It was a tough call for me. Cutler won based on owning the records.

These "historical Bears QB discussions" are like closing time decisions about which drunken slore at the bar you should take home. When you are arguing about whether Cutler or McMahon was the best, you know you are in trouble. At least McMahon took pressure OFF the team, unlike Cutler who contributes to it. McMahon was at least fun, instead of making me squirm and feel uncomfortable. And McMahon didn't waste the team's largest investment in offense and squander the best supporting offensive cast by turning the ball over. Of course, McMahon had a vastly better defense, and there's little doubt Cutler is more talented.

One thing you have to wonder about, is how would McMahon's career have gone if Charles Martin hadn't wrecked his shoulder to end Jimmy's 1986 season. One of the legacies of that play was it pushed the Bears back into wanting natural grass instead of turf. There's a legacy for a quarterback for you.

 

[blh7068]

His all but guaranteed release? He was'nt staying?? You got info I don't? His cap number made him even more worth keeping. I do hold this move against Pace because it was a bad one in every way. I give him credit when it's do. And I hold him accountable for both good and bad moves. We could have used that first pick on a defender instead of a WR who can't help us. FKN waste of a first pick. I like the guy but with Cutler he will be a waste of talent. And No I don't believe the next QB will be any good either, I'm a Bears fan there is no such thing as a good QB. Thier a myth.

Nooner- The 'info' is the fact they successfully shopped a player days before his 2015 salary became guaranteed. Trading Marshall puts the Bears are in a better position to sign Jeffery to a 2nd contract, should they opt to do so. Marshalls cap hit would limit their ability to make a competitive offer, one that will likely be required if they really want him to stay.

 

[blh7068]

At least McMahon took pressure OFF the team, unlike Cutler who contributes to it. McMahon was at least fun, instead of making me squirm and feel uncomfortable. And McMahon didn't waste the team's largest investment in offense and squander the best supporting offensive cast by turning the ball over

McMahon was fun, and had a lot of personality. That was about it. A defense that grew into all world and arguably the best RB in the history of of the game is how they won. While in Chi town- He never improved. Didnt exceeded a 60% completion rate in any year as a Bear, and had a interception rate worse than Cutler. That said How many wins fall out of McMahons numbers had he been backed by the worst defenses in team history the past 2 seasons?

If its his personality that took pressure off the team, I certainly can agree with that. If its his play youre referencing, not a chance.

 

[beardown07]

McMahon was fun, and had a lot of personality. That was about it. A defense that grew into all world and arguably the best RB in the history of of the game is how they won. While in Chi town- He never improved. Didnt exceeded a 60% completion rate in any year as a Bear, and had a interception rate worse than Cutler. That said How many wins fall out of McMahons numbers had he been backed by the worst defenses in team history the past 2 seasons?

If its his personality that took pressure off the team, I certainly can agree with that. If its his play youre referencing, not a chance.

McMahon was a winner though man. He just had "something". We will never know what he could have been, thanks to that c unt from Green Bay.


Anyone who wants to know where the disdain for the Packers comes from, look no further than Forrest Gregg.

 

[blh7068]

Between 84-86 the Bears went 39-9. McMahon started a little more than half those games at 54%. Most of the remaining games were started by the likes of Steve Fuller and Mike Tomczak. I like Jimmy Mac- dont get me wrong. However his leadership and intangibles are grossly exaggerated given the fact winning was pretty much an equal chance proposition when Fuller and Tomczak played.

 

[blh7068]

McMahon was a winner though man. He just had "something". We will never know what he could have been, thanks to that c unt from Green Bay.


Anyone who wants to know where the disdain for the Packers comes from, look no further than Forrest Gregg.

I dont disagree. There was something. His body of work with the Bears wasnt great, and they won. They also won when he didnt play- and thats an indication to me 'that something' is exaggerated. I like Jimmy Mac and glad he was part of a winning team, but thats how I see it.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

McMahon was fun, and had a lot of personality. That was about it. A defense that grew into all world and arguably the best RB in the history of of the game is how they won. While in Chi town- He never improved. Didnt exceeded a 60% completion rate in any year as a Bear, and had a interception rate worse than Cutler. That said How many wins fall out of McMahons numbers had he been backed by the worst defenses in team history the past 2 seasons?

If its his personality that took pressure off the team, I certainly can agree with that. If its his play youre referencing, not a chance.

I think your memory is short and comparisons wrong. You can't compare QB stats across decades given how much more pass-friendly the game has gotten. There was no "west Coast offense" that inflated completion percentages back then. It was a longer passing game, and much, much harder receivers and QBs by rule. McMahon definitely got better every season until 1986, at which point his improvement definitely stopped.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue he was anything like a "great" QB. He wasn't. There's no question the running game and the defense helped a lot. That was the NFL back then. But in terms of fulfilling his role and helping his team win games, I'd argue he was more effective at doing his job than Cutler is at his. And...crucially...in 1985, before he got hurt in 1986, he played very well in the playoffs, when it matters most. I have little doubt that if Martin didn't take him down, the Bears at a minimum win at least the 1986 Super Bowl and maybe 1987 as well.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Between 84-86 the Bears went 39-9. McMahon started a little more than half those games at 54%. Most of the remaining games were started by the likes of Steve Fuller and Mike Tomczak. I like Jimmy Mac- dont get me wrong. However his leadership and intangibles are grossly exaggerated given the fact winning was pretty much an equal chance proposition when Fuller and Tomczak played.

Yeah, sorry, but Mike Tomczak playing in the 1986 playoffs is why we lost that year. Tomczak was awful. It's the playoffs where bad quarterbacking truly kills you because the competition is consistently better, and in that regard the premium healthy McMahon brought would have been sufficient over how Tomczak played.

 

[blh7068]

I think your memory is short and comparisons wrong. You can't compare QB stats across decades given how much more pass-friendly the game has gotten. There was no "west Coast offense" that inflated completion percentages back then. It was a longer passing game, and much, much harder receivers and QBs by rule. McMahon definitely got better every season until 1986, at which point his improvement definitely stopped.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue he was anything like a "great" QB. He wasn't. There's no question the running game and the defense helped a lot. That was the NFL back then. But in terms of fulfilling his role and helping his team win games, I'd argue he was more effective at doing his job than Cutler is at his. And...crucially...in 1985, before he got hurt in 1986, he played very well in the playoffs, when it matters most. I have little doubt that if Martin didn't take him down, the Bears at a minimum win at least the 1986 Super Bowl and maybe 1987 as well.

My memory isnt short- but youre correct, comp % isnt a good number to use by comparison. What I remember is vivid- Defense and a RB is what won games, especially in the time period I specified in a later post. I still maintain that he didnt improve- if nothing else for the fact he never played a full season.

They lost 9 games in a 48 game span where McMahon started a little more than half of those games. If I'm grossly underestimating his value/abilities- dont you think that would have been reflected a bit more by a few more losses in the games he didnt play in during that period?

As for better post seasons in the years to follow? Meh, who knows how far they would have gotten. Now I would have liked their chances better with JM vs Washington in that 86 postseason game, even though the defense was roughed up a bit- by their standards anyways.

 

[blh7068]

Yeah, sorry, but Mike Tomczak playing in the 1986 playoffs is why we lost that year. Tomczak was awful. It's the playoffs where bad quarterbacking truly kills you because the competition is consistently better, and in that regard the premium healthy McMahon brought would have been sufficient over how Tomczak played.

Had he been the starter in that playoff game, you might be correct. Flutie started that playoff game, though.

Yep. Tomczak was awful. However, he started 7 regular games in 1986 and the Bears won all of them. Like I said- winning in that 84-86 time period was pretty much equal chance in the games where JM didnt play. QB play during that time period was an aside given the rush offense and defense.

 

[cubzzzfanincali]

Had he been the starter in that playoff game, you might be correct. Flutie started that playoff game, though.

Yep. Tomczak was awful. However, he started 7 regular games in 1986 and the Bears won all of them. Like I said- winning in that 84-86 time period was pretty much equal chance in the games where JM didnt play. QB play during that time period was an aside given the rush offense and defense.

oh that's right. That was Flutie. I guess it's my memory that sucks. Other than the bomb to Gault, his play was terrible.