Why Are We Not Trying To Trade RG3

[ATL96Steeler]

What about your boy Big Ben? Why only go back to '08?

Of the starters today these are the guys who were starters by year 2, most started earlier, and have shown to be pretty good. Some of them much better than pretty good and all show that you don't need 4 years to develop.

Luck
Wilson
Flacco
Roth
Ryan
Cam
Eli
Palmer
Brady
Peyton
Daulton
Stafford
Bridgewater
Brees
Carr

Philip Rivers was starting the first game of year 3.

Because if you go back much earlier...read option QBs were not getting drafted...not as starters. From your list...3 guys were read option QBs in college...RW, Cam and Dalton...so that's actually not bad representation...the failures of Kap, and RG3 cast a wide shadow.

 

[Stymietee]

$$$$ ... there is the problem. Draft a guy in the 4th round. He doesn't hurt your salary cap and you can do as you suggest. Draft a guy in the top 10-15 overall and it becomes a dollars and cents issue. Even with the change in rookie salaries 4 or 5 years ago. I will mention Griffin only because I have a fair idea of his contract without looking it up. I believe he was signed to a 4 year $20 million dollar contract. Owners aren't going to spend $15 million on QB education.

Then change the market value on QB's that are not NFL ready, it can be done........see RB's. In fact someone mentioned drafting lesser talented guys from schools that run traditional pro style offenses. That certainly would drive down the cost of guys coming from spread offenses.

 

[Stymietee]

$$$$ ... there is the problem. Draft a guy in the 4th round. He doesn't hurt your salary cap and you can do as you suggest. Draft a guy in the top 10-15 overall and it becomes a dollars and cents issue. Even with the change in rookie salaries 4 or 5 years ago. I will mention Griffin only because I have a fair idea of his contract without looking it up. I believe he was signed to a 4 year $20 million dollar contract. Owners aren't going to spend $15 million on QB education.

By your own standards, it appears that they would rather spend $20M on someone doomed to fail because he lacks the basic skills to do his job.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Agree 100%!

At present the draft sites I look at think 3 QBs have 1st round grades...Lynch, Memphis...Cook, Mich St...Goff, CAL...all are more prototypical pocket passers...it'll be interesting if any of them become decent NFL starters.

Bingo! NFL scouts need to change their focus (& likely already are) to look at guys like these who have a much better chance to succeed in the NFL. Just because some of the others thrive in college type systems does not mean that they can or even should be NFL QBs. Look at the Alabama QBs - none of them are ever viewed as future NFL starters yet they do very well in college.

It almost appears that some are maintaining that certain QBs at big time schools who are fast and have a strong arm will automatically develop into NFL starting material if given the right coaching. I am arguing against this & stating that many of them will never be true starters regardless of talent because there is so much more to the position of QB (that the majority of the population could never develop even with 5/6 years of coaching).

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Because if you go back much earlier...read option QBs were not getting drafted...not as starters. From your list...3 guys were read option QBs in college...RW, Cam and Dalton...so that's actually not bad representation...the failures of Kap, and RG3 cast a wide shadow.

Read option or spread? Was Dalton a read option QB in college? RW? I honestly don't know, not sure it was that prevalent in college that long ago. I think you mean spread offenses. Point is RW, Cam and Dalton did fine starting right away despite playing in a spread offense in college. So did the dozen or so other QBs on my list that came in and played well early.

Point is some here think it's imparative that you school your QB for 4 years or you will ruin him. I just don't see it that way and I've cited plenty of examples. Griffin wasn't ruined because he played early, Griffin is ruined because he never developed the instincts to play the position, just like Kap, after years of trying.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Bingo! NFL scouts need to change their focus (& likely already are) to look at guys like these who have a much better chance to succeed in the NFL. Just because some of the others thrive in college type systems does not mean that they can or even should be NFL QBs. Look at the Alabama QBs - none of them are ever viewed as future NFL starters yet they do very well in college.

It almost appears that some are maintaining that certain QBs at big time schools who are fast and have a strong arm will automatically develop into NFL starting material if given the right coaching. I am arguing against this & stating that many of them will never be true starters regardless of talent because there is so much more to the position of QB (that the majority of the population could never develop even with 5/6 years of coaching).

The NFL will always go by the measureables and that's why a guy like RW ends up going in the 3rd round and JaMarcus Russell goes in the 1st round...but when the measureables fit yet the style of play doesn't...essentially you have a project which ironically a few scouts called RG3.

On the other hand you have QBs like McCarron that might be able to handle the style of play, the playbook, etc. but don't have NFL starter skill set...those are what we call stop gaps QBs...low ceiling players...with great talent around them they can play .500, 9-7 type ball.

 

[Sportster 72]

By your own standards, it appears that they would rather spend $20M on someone doomed to fail because he lacks the basic skills to do his job.

Actually I think it is the old "we can fix this guy." You know as well as I do that too much is emphasis is placed on measurables. He runs a great 40 time, he can throw the ball 70 yards, He weighs 260 etc. Because of having family and friends who play D II football I see this all the time. Good athletes who may be too small, too slow, now big enough.

Sty, all these D II schools or most of them are running spread/no huddle offenses too. I mentioned this more than once. It is easier for college coaches to get kids who can be successful in that type of offense than it is to have them in a pro style offense. College is a completely different game. Often college QBs are throwing to WIDE open receivers. That doesn't happen in the NFL.

Anyhow it isn't mean who is against learning for a couple of years. It's todays contracts. I have no say over that. These kids get tossed in before they are ready too often. Sink or swim. It wasn't me who created the standard. I just commented on it.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Read option or spread? Was Dalton a read option QB in college? RW? I honestly don't know, not sure it was that prevalent in college that long ago. I think you mean spread offenses. Point is RW, Cam and Dalton did fine starting right away despite playing in a spread offense in college. So did the dozen or so other QBs on my list that came in and played well early.

Point is some here think it's imparative that you school your QB for 4 years or you will ruin him. I just don't see it that way and I've cited plenty of examples. Griffin wasn't ruined because he played early, Griffin is ruined because he never developed the instincts to play the position, just like Kap, after years of trying.

Read, spread...the finite details idk eith either, but Dalton ran the ball a lot in college much like Alex Smith in Utah.

4 yrs...I'm not saying it HAS to take that long...by 30-35 starts, the QB has seen most of the teams in the league you play on a normal basis, the DCs know you and you've had a year or so to work on your areas of challenge...by no means a finished product, but you should have an idea of what you have.

I am saying if you take a QB that has not played in a pro style OFC you need to be prepared for a longer learning curve. I know he started hot, and cooled off a bit, but the kid in TN..Mariota...it might take an extra year to develop vs Winston

 

[SoCalWizFan]

The NFL will always go by the measureables and that's why a guy like RW ends up going in the 3rd round and JaMarcus Russell goes in the 1st round...but when the measureables fit yet the style of play doesn't...essentially you have a project which ironically a few scouts called RG3.

On the other hand you have QBs like McCarron that might be able to handle the style of play, the playbook, etc. but don't have NFL starter skill set...those are what we call stop gaps QBs...low ceiling players...with great talent around them they can play .500, 9-7 type ball.

And therein lies the problem. The NFL & especially the QB position is about a lot more than your size, how fast you can run & how far you can throw the ball. You would think that these guys would have figured this out by now. Remember - Brady was viewed as one of the worst for measurables & look how that turned out.

Oh well - I feel confident that this team finally has the right FO so I believe that one way or another they will have the right person at QB within the next few years.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Read, spread...the finite details idk eith either, but Dalton ran the ball a lot in college much like Alex Smith in Utah.

4 yrs...I'm not saying it HAS to take that long...by 30-35 starts, the QB has seen most of the teams in the league you play on a normal basis, the DCs know you and you've had a year or so to work on your areas of challenge...by no means a finished product, but you should have an idea of what you have.

I am saying if you take a QB that has not played in a pro style OFC you need to be prepared for a longer learning curve. I know he started hot, and cooled off a bit, but the kid in TN..Mariota...it might take an extra year to develop vs Winston

Or it may never really happen. IMO - Winston will turn out to be the better QB.

 

[Stymietee]

The NFL will always go by the measureables and that's why a guy like RW ends up going in the 3rd round and JaMarcus Russell goes in the 1st round...but when the measureables fit yet the style of play doesn't...essentially you have a project which ironically a few scouts called RG3.

On the other hand you have QBs like McCarron that might be able to handle the style of play, the playbook, etc. but don't have NFL starter skill set...those are what we call stop gaps QBs...low ceiling players...with great talent around them they can play .500, 9-7 type ball.

Just curious ATL96Steeler........Kirk Cousins vs. A.J. McCarron.....same type of guy or what? your viewpoint/ comparison would be greatly appreciated.( Kirks experience excepted) Thanks!

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Read, spread...the finite details idk eith either, but Dalton ran the ball a lot in college much like Alex Smith in Utah.

4 yrs...I'm not saying it HAS to take that long...by 30-35 starts, the QB has seen most of the teams in the league you play on a normal basis, the DCs know you and you've had a year or so to work on your areas of challenge...by no means a finished product, but you should have an idea of what you have.

I am saying if you take a QB that has not played in a pro style OFC you need to be prepared for a longer learning curve. I know he started hot, and cooled off a bit, but the kid in TN..Mariota...it might take an extra year to develop vs Winston

Oh there is no question you need to be prepared for a longer learning curve with a spread QB. Shanny told Snyder that when they discussed Griffin.

But again my point is you don't "ruin" a QB by throwing him out there right away. There is no evidence to support that at all. Stymie likes to use Aaron Rogers as the way to do it. Well Rogers didn't come from a spread offense, he came with the background similar to the dozen or so QBs on my list that didn't need 4 years and weren't "ruined" by playing early. Griffin sucks because he couldn't develop. Wilson is good because he could. Both started right away.

 

[Stymietee]

And therein lies the problem. The NFL & especially the QB position is about a lot more than your size, how fast you can run & how far you can throw the ball. You would think that these guys would have figured this out by now. Remember - Brady was viewed as one of the worst for measurables & look how that turned out.

Oh well - I feel confident that this team finally has the right FO so I believe that one way or another they will have the right person at QB within the next few years.

Right now we all believe in and trust SM (well most of us do) however if we are honest about him ventures elsewhere, we won't have a franchise type QB here. What we will have is a manager type on a highly skilled team that makes him LOOK better than what he is. (See: San Francisco and Seattle)

 

[DJ Fieri]

Shanahan fucked up RGIII bringing him back faster than he needed to. This time on the sidelines is great for RGIII, he should be 100% healthy by the time he sees the field again.

Wherever that may be.

 

[j_y19]

Shanahan fucked up RGIII bringing him back faster than he needed to. This time on the sidelines is great for RGIII, he should be 100% healthy by the time he sees the field again.

Wherever that may be.

I guess you missed the "All in for week 1" campaign waged by the player himself. Or how RG3 called out shanahan before that second season saying that shanahan would be a liar if he decided not to play him that first game. It's kinda material to your assessment.

 

[Stymietee]

Oh there is no question you need to be prepared for a longer learning curve with a spread QB. Shanny told Snyder that when they discussed Griffin.

But again my point is you don't "ruin" a QB by throwing him out there right away. There is no evidence to support that at all. Stymie likes to use Aaron Rogers as the way to do it. Well Rogers didn't come from a spread offense, he came with the background similar to the dozen or so QBs on my list that didn't need 4 years and weren't "ruined" by playing early. Griffin sucks because he couldn't develop. Wilson is good because he could. Both started right away.

See, what you did there? I didn't use Aaron Rogers singularly, just the system that produced him.

Secondarily, both Rodgers and Wilson came from systems more friendly to the NFL style. Wilson also played baseball, so sliding came from that effort.

More important than any of these points is.....do you honestly believe that developing means learning to read defenses or correcting footwork release points only happen during live games?? Whaaaaa, no film work?, no coaching?, no working on those skills?

BTW: your list only had 3 guys that qualified for this discussion (someone already pointed that out) Not dozens.

 

[Stymietee]

Shanahan fucked up RGIII bringing him back faster than he needed to. This time on the sidelines is great for RGIII, he should be 100% healthy by the time he sees the field again.

Wherever that may be.

Pretty sure that he's working his ass off with Matt Cavanaugh on those deficiencies!!

 

[Stymietee]

I guess you missed the "All in for week 1" campaign waged by the player himself. Or how RG3 called out shanahan before that second season saying that shanahan would be a liar if he decided not to play him that first game. It's kinda material to your assessment.

Employer....employee......guess which one get the last say? (If he had balls enough to force the issue)

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Right now we all believe in and trust SM (well most of us do) however if we are honest about him ventures elsewhere, we won't have a franchise type QB here. What we will have is a manager type on a highly skilled team that makes him LOOK better than what he is. (See: San Francisco and Seattle)

If that is what happens - I am fine with that. You have to crawl before you walk. Also - who cares if someone looks better than they are - what matters are results. If this team is anywhere close to SF or SEA during SM's tenure I will be more than happy. BTW - I disagree with you if you believe that Wilson is just a game manager. He is doing quite a bit for the Seahawks considering that their O line may be the worst in the NFL.

You really seem to be going overboard in your desire to defend RG3 at all cost. Like I have always maintained - I don't root for Cousins, RG3 or whoever - I root for the Redskins period and want whoever is best for each position. I am completely confused as to how you view RG3 as ultimately being better than Luck. Oh well.

 

[j_y19]

Employer....employee......guess which one get the last say? (If he had balls enough to force the issue)

Clearly the QB. He is still here.