When will Lebron pass Jordan?

[Raw_Bee808]

The reason why Jordan didn't beat the 86 Celtics is because they won 30 games. Pretty sure they didn't play the Celtics 52 times that year.

LOL, Jordan broke his foot that year and missed 64 games. The team barely stayed afloat he came back and was on a minutes restriction for the rest of the regular season.

 

[flyerhawk]

LOL, Jordan broke his foot that year and missed 64 games. The team barely stayed afloat he came back and was on a minutes restriction for the rest of the regular season.

So you used the 86 Celtics as an excuse until it becomes obvious that was a poor excuse and then change your excuse?

You brought up the 86 Celtics.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

So you used the 86 Celtics as an excuse until it becomes obvious that was a poor excuse and then change your excuse?

You brought up the 86 Celtics.

LOL, that was the same season (1985-86 season). He broke his foot and missed 64 games. He came back late in the regular season and was on a minutes restriction until the playoffs where they played the Celtics in the first round. Try to keep up.

 

[flyerhawk]

LOL, that was the same season (1985-86 season). He broke his foot and missed 64 games. He came back late in the regular season and was on a minutes restriction until the playoffs where they played the Celtics in the first round. Try to keep up.

Then why did you use them as an example?

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Then why did you use them as an example?

Who else do want me to use? They played the Celtics again the next season, same The Point I was making before about the talent dresult. Then the next year they beat Cleveland and lost the the Bad Boy Pistons. It goes back to the point I made before about the talent disparity.

 

[flyerhawk]

Who else do want me to use? They played the Celtics again the next season, same The Point I was making before about the talent dresult. Then the next year they beat Cleveland and lost the the Bad Boy Pistons. It goes back to the point I made before about the talent disparity.

Yeah and the Bulls won 40 games that season. The year after that they got Scottie Pippen and the team started their run towards dominance.

 

[tlance]

It's not an indictment of MJ. The Bulls were obviously much better with MJ than without him. But that Bulls team was VERY good even without MJ.

The Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons weren't the reason why the Bulls were a bad team for 4 years when MJ joined them.

Nope.

They never lost to the Knicks with MJ and would never lose a series, but the Knicks always put up a good fight.

As for '94, the Bulls had the Knicks on the ropes in that series too. The Bulls were winning game 5 in the Garden before one of the most controversial end of game playoff where Hubert Davis drew a phantom foul call at the last second.

The Bulls lost that series in 7, and the Knicks lost in the NBA Finals to Hakeem and the Rockets in 7 that year. In other words, those 55 win Bulls were right there with the very best teams in the NBA.

After that season, they lost all star Horace Grant along with key role players like Paxson and Cartwright. But the reality is that the '94 team was still really good without MJ and most of the same pieces as the year before, while the '95 team was a lot different.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Nope.

They never lost to the Knicks with MJ and would never lose a series, but the Knicks always put up a good fight.

As for '94, the Bulls had the Knicks on the ropes in that series too. The Bulls were winning game 5 in the Garden before one of the most controversial end of game playoff where Hubert Davis drew a phantom foul call at the last second.

The Bulls lost that series in 7, and the Knicks lost in the NBA Finals to Hakeem and the Rockets in 7 that year. In other words, those 55 win Bulls were right there with the very best teams in the NBA.

After that season, they lost all star Horace Grant along with key role players like Paxson and Cartwright. But the reality is that the '94 team was still really good without MJ and most of the same pieces as the year before, while the '95 team was a lot different.

They also added Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper to the team for the '94 season

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Yeah and the Bulls won 40 games that season. The year after that they got Scottie Pippen and the team started their run towards dominance.

They improved each year as the roster improved and MJ improved and began to trust his teammates more.

86- lost in first round
87-lost in first round
88-lost in second round
89-lost in conf. finals
90-lost in conf. finals (7games)
91-champs
92-champs
93-champs

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Scottie Pippen was one of the main reasons they had so much trouble beating Detroit. They would focus their defense on Jordan (the Jordan Rule defense) knowing there was no one else that could hurt them. The Pistons were always punking Pippen out and he sat out most of game 7 against them because of a migrane. It wasn't until he finally started playing like a man and stepping up in the big games did they become a championship team.

 

[flyerhawk]

They improved each year as the roster improved and MJ improved and began to trust his teammates more.

86- lost in first round
87-lost in first round
88-lost in second round
89-lost in conf. finals
90-lost in conf. finals (7games)
91-champs
92-champs
93-champs

It is absolutely atrocious that the Bulls made the playoffs with a record of 30-52 in 1986.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Nope.

They never lost to the Knicks with MJ and would never lose a series, but the Knicks always put up a good fight.

As for '94, the Bulls had the Knicks on the ropes in that series too. The Bulls were winning game 5 in the Garden before one of the most controversial end of game playoff where Hubert Davis drew a phantom foul call at the last second.

The Bulls lost that series in 7, and the Knicks lost in the NBA Finals to Hakeem and the Rockets in 7 that year. In other words, those 55 win Bulls were right there with the very best teams in the NBA.

After that season, they lost all star Horace Grant along with key role players like Paxson and Cartwright. But the reality is that the '94 team was still really good without MJ and most of the same pieces as the year before, while the '95 team was a lot different.

They added Kukoc, Harper, and Kerr for the '94 season. Grant was the only loss. Cartwright was washed up and Paxson was slowing down too he had lost his starting job back in '93.

The Bulls were down 2-0 to the Knicks '94 and in danger of losing game 3 at home but Phil sent JoJo English into the game and he started a fight with Derek Harper. Both get ejected, Harper is suspened for 2 games which really changed the series. Also Kukoc hit a game winning shot in game 3 while Pippen pouted on the bench because the play wasn't called for him to shoot the last shot. If the Bulls lost that game they go down 3-0 and might even get swept. And you can't discount the Derek Harper suspension, those two events really changed that series.

Don't get me started on that Hubert Davis call.

LOL @ one of the best teams in the league, how many times do we see teams have great regular season records only to fizzle out in the playoffs. I already posted earlier they went hard in the regular season that year to prove they weren't just the "Jordanaires" they were motivated, whereas championship Bulls teams would coast through some of the season to make sure guys were rested and healthy for the playoffs.

I'm not sure the Bulls would've beaten Indiana in the Conference Finals, never mind beating Houston.

 

[flyerhawk]

LOL @ one of the best teams in the league, how many times do we see teams have great regular season records only to fizzle out in the playoffs. I already posted earlier they went hard in the regular season that year to prove they weren't just the "Jordanaires" they were motivated, whereas championship Bulls teams would coast through some of the season to make sure guys were rested and healthy for the playoffs.

I'm not sure the Bulls would've beaten Indiana in the Conference Finals, never mind beating Houston.

LOL. The Bulls coasted when Jordan was on the team? That is your argument? And the 94 team won 55 games because they really really wanted to?

It's getting hard to take you seriously after this bout of rationalization.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

It is absolutely atrocious that the Bulls made the playoffs with a record of 30-52 in 1986.

LOL. The Bulls coasted when Jordan was on the team? That is your argument? And the 94 team won 55 games because they really really wanted to?

It's getting hard to take you seriously after this bout of rationalization.

They would coast at points this was mostly in 93 because they were coming off back to back titles and Jordan and Pippen also played in the Olympics that summer so they were trying to take it easy on them minutes wise. There were also some other guys that were a little banged up that they were trying to get healthy for the playoffs. The Bulls didn't even care about getting the #1 seed that year (the Knicks were #1 seed) and they still won 57 games. The two years before that they won 61 in '91 and 67 in'92 so it's not like the '94 team ever outperformed the previous Jordan teams.

I've had trouble taking you seriously since you started posting this morning.

 

[flyerhawk]

They would coast at points this was mostly in 93 because they were coming off back to back titles and Jordan and Pippen also played in the Olympics that summer so they were trying to take it easy on them minutes wise. There were also some other guys that were a little banged up that they were trying to get healthy for the playoffs. The Bulls didn't even care about getting the #1 seed that year (the Knicks were #1 seed) and they still won 57 games. The two years before that they won 61 in '91 and 67 in'92 so it's not like the '94 team ever outperformed the previous Jordan teams.

No one is arguing that the MJ less Bulls outperformed the Bulls with him. That is your straw man.

I've had trouble taking you seriously since you started posting this morning.

I have 33,000+ posts. I'm pretty sure I didn't do all those posts since this morning.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

No one is arguing that the MJ less Bulls outperformed the Bulls with him. That is your straw man.




I have 33,000+ posts. I'm pretty sure I didn't do all those posts since this morning.

Then what are you arguing, you seem to be arguing just for the sake or arguing. You have brought nothing to this discussion. What is your point? The '94 Bulls a team with a championship core that also added some more pieces to the roster (kukoc, harper, kerr) coming off 3 straight titles had a great regular season and lost in the second round of the playoffs without Michael Jordan........and???? All I'm seeing is 55 wins this 55 wins that........and your point is????

This morning is the first time I became aware of you.

 

[flyerhawk]

Then what are you arguing, you seem to be arguing just for the sake or arguing. You have brought nothing to this discussion. What is your point? The '94 Bulls a team with a championship core that also added some more pieces to the roster (kukoc, harper, kerr) coming off 3 straight titles had a great regular season and lost in the second round of the playoffs without Michael Jordan........and???? All I'm seeing is 55 wins this 55 wins that........and your point is????

This morning is the first time I became aware of you.

Here is what I said all of 10 posts ago..

The Chicago Bulls won 55 games the first year Jordan sat out for gambling. The Cavs won 19 the year after Lebron left. The Heat won 37 the year after he left. And the Cavs would win about 35 next year if Lebron leaves.

The Bulls had an extremely good team that was unbeatable with MJ while merely very good without him. Lebron's teams historically go in the toilet the moment he leaves which will happen again if he leaves Cleveland this offseason.

You ignored that point and started arguing about how much tougher things were for Jordan because he lost to the 86 Celtics. That point ignored that the 86 Bulls were a pretty crappy team that would have lost to just about every other playoff team that year.

 

[Raw_Bee808]

Here is what I said all of 10 posts ago..



The Bulls had an extremely good team that was unbeatable with MJ while merely very good without him. Lebron's teams historically go in the toilet the moment he leaves which will happen again if he leaves Cleveland this offseason.

You ignored that point and started arguing about how much tougher things were for Jordan because he lost to the 86 Celtics. That point ignored that the 86 Bulls were a pretty crappy team that would have lost to just about every other playoff team that year.

Lebrons teams go into the tank because he doesn't allow a coach to install any real offensive system its all "bron ball" where he dominates the ball and either makes a play for himself or drives and kicks to a shooter. And lets not act like the Cavs didn't tank for draft picks too, come on now.

The point about the 86 Celtics is that they along with the Bad Boy Pistons were the top teams in the east, if the Bulls wanted to get to the Finals they needed to beat them. But it wasn't going to happen when he's facing the Celtics where 4 out of 5 starters ended up in the hall of fame and they had a hall of famer coming off the bench while MJ has scrubs like Dave Corzine and Kyle Macy as his starters. You to want to hold it against him that they couldn't beat them or the Bad Boys who were one of the deepest teams in the league talent-wise. Once he got a better roster and Pippen grew some balls they beat Detroit and no matter what series win or lose, Jordan performed great in the playoffs so its wasnt like he was the reason they were losing or that he was shrinking in the big games like Scottie did, he was the reason they were even in those games most of the time, he was carrying those teams.

 

[flyerhawk]

Lebrons teams go into the tank because he doesn't allow a coach to install any real offensive system its all "bron ball" where he dominates the ball and either makes a play for himself or drives and kicks to a shooter. And lets not act like the Cavs didn't tank for draft picks too, come on now.

So you think that 2011 team featuring the rotting corpses of Shaq, Antwan Jamison and and Ilgauskas was actually a good team? What do you think the current Cavs team's record would be without Lebron?

And is a Jordan fan really going to criticize Lebron for running the team? Really?

The point about the 86 Celtics is that they along with the Bad Boy Pistons were the top teams in the east, if the Bulls wanted to get to the Finals they needed to beat them. But it wasn't going to happen when he's facing the Celtics where 4 out of 5 starters ended up in the hall of fame and they had a hall of famer coming off the bench while MJ has scrubs like Dave Corzine and Kyle Macy as his starters. You to want to hold it against him that they couldn't beat them or the Bad Boys who were one of the deepest teams in the league talent-wise. Once he got a better roster and Pippen grew some balls they beat Detroit.

I don't hold it against him other than to point out that Jordan needed a supporting cast just like every other NBA great. The Bulls never get Pippen, they don't win 6 championships. They may never have won a single championship.

Which is why it is always so silly to argue about one player having it tougher/easier than another player. Those 80s Celtics teams were amazing. The Pistons had a great run for 3 or 4 years.

But guess what? The Spurs were an amazing team. And the Warriors are in the conversation for greatest team EVER!

 

[Raw_Bee808]

So you think that 2011 team featuring the rotting corpses of Shaq, Antwan Jamison and and Ilgauskas was actually a good team? What do you think the current Cavs team's record would be without Lebron?

No, they weren't a good team, that's why he left to form a super team in Miami. The current Cavs aren't a great team, they are benefiting from a weak eastern conference and will lose to whoever makes the Finals. The Celtics are missing their two best players and are probably going to the ECF, LOL.

And is a Jordan fan really going to criticize Lebron for running the team? Really?

Jordan allowed Phil Jackson to install the triangle offense.

I don't hold it against him other than to point out that Jordan needed a supporting cast just like every other NBA great. The Bulls never get Pippen, they don't win 6 championships. They may never have won a single championship.


Of course he needed help, he was going against teams with multiple HOF's.

Which is why it is always so silly to argue about one player having it tougher/easier than another player. Those 80s Celtics teams were amazing. The Pistons had a great run for 3 or 4 years.

But guess what? The Spurs were an amazing team. And the Warriors are in the conversation for greatest team EVER!

I never said anything about who had it tougher or easier.

Yes, the Warriors are an all time great team.